GB study and reading across genres?

[OhElizabeth]

I was reading SWB's new article in the MP catalog and relating that to her convention talk on WEM. Is there some reason we don't read a genre through time more heartily for our GB study? Does Omnibus do this and I don't see it? Is it possible Omnibus is trying to be all this to all people, and that a student might be happier sticking to a more personalized course of study by genre? Or would that be imbalanced in school but not for adults? And is it possible that *I* am drawn to books in Omnibus (because they are of a particular genre) that my dd would not like and vice versa? Is my lack of pleasure in Till We Have Faces more a reflection of my genre preference than anything? So far I've LOVED Hammurabi's Code (brief, efficient, left me rolling in the aisles with hilarious quotes, read the whole thing) and Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. I must be a weird cookie!

Maybe there aren't enough selections in a particular genre to keep a student going? (epic, etc.) But if so, then why would SWB say to do it?

[Michelle in AL]

I think I'm confused. Do you mean why don't students per say read historical novels from the ancient times-modern then move on to drama from ancient-modern?

I need the variety of genres to keep me interested and I like the mixture of genres in the ancients. Each added it's own type of information or piece of the puzzle.

[OhElizabeth]

SWB said in her WEM convention talk (which I assume is the jist of her book) and in her article in the new MP catalog to read a genre, any genre, across time. So I guess I'm asking if this is something students are supposed to do for high school GB study, or is it only a method of self-study for adults who are less likely to perservere when not interested? I don't actually have a copy of WEM myself, so I don't know what she says there.

Maybe I'm just muddling it all in my mind? In a WEM-style study, you could have books *about* the time period that aren't necessarily *from* the time period, right? Omnibus does a little of that. But when they cease to be the greats/classics, they become just the good, ie. like any other lit-driven approach.

All this in reality is because I'm looking for alternatives to Omnibus. I have O1, may even use it, but I'm just trying to understand better what I'm trying to do, to see if there might be other ways of getting there. Ok, phrase this a different way. If people do WEM for a high school GB study, do they read a genre across history? I know I've seen people around here giving genre categories and showing how they use that to do create a GB list, so maybe that is more common?

And the ultimate question: is there some virtue, some added benefit to doing Omnibus as a WHOLE that you lose if you select books from it and use it piecemeal?

[Michelle in AL]

I got you, I think the "read through the genres study" applies only to adult ed. In TWTM she surely mixes genres and focuses on time periods with mixed genres within.

I plan to use the WEM in a mixed genre approach. I decided not to use Omnibus this yr, because I tweaked it so much last yr that I relied on it very little.

Here's how I use TWTM and the WEM combination. We teach one time period/yr. I look at the recommended Great Books list in TWTM and decide what I want to use. I add in other "not so great" lit that goes along with the time period too. Then I read about that genre and overview for each book in the WEM as I come to it.

For me as teacher my approach looks like this:
Select book, for example Beowulf
Rd about it on wikipedia
Read about historical poetry in WEM.
Rd the specific Beowulf info in WEM.
Rd book along with cliff notes
Look up lesson plans on book

For the student:
Do context page on Beowulf
Learn about epic poetry (Can be done through WEM or info I put together)
Answer prereading ?'s from WEM
Rd Beowulf
Complete activities and discuss with me
Complete post reading ?'s from WEM

This is probably way too much info, more than what you wanted, but I sensed you wanted an alternative to Omnibus and this is how I approach it.

I also use guides from The Center for Learning, but they work best if you use them in a small group.

I also like Glencoe guides when they are available.

[OhElizabeth]

Yes, that's what I wanted to know! For a fleeting moment there, I had hoped there was some romantic option of reading across a genre with our students (one year plays, another year..., that sort of thing), but apparently that's not what people do. The approach you're using in prep sounds much like what I'm doing with these O readings, so that seems right on. I'm finding myself dissatisfied on points with the coverage in Omnibus (doesn't necessarily answer my questions about the texts, doesn't necessarily take it the direction I want to go). Now I'm realizing that literally quantifies my issue. I think SWB was right on in her article, that we're all wanting "experts" to come in and tell us the right answer, the right method, the right approach. What I'm wanting has no answer, and I have to become my own expert to get there. And I see now that I need to be noting in my files for each book what I WANTED to learn through it, what was left uncovered in the material, etc.

Now, the next great question, again maybe so simplistic that it doesn't make sense. What IS the "Great Conversation"??? I keep reading people saying that reading GB help us to engage in the great conversation. Is it the search for meaning? Enlightenment on the issues of the ages? Perspective? The search for truth? How truth applies to modern living? Reclaiming past knowledge?

I hope that doesn't sound too bizarre. I just haven't figured it out yet. See, if you're a christian, then you already have the Scriptures, all man needs for enlightenment in truth, maturity, and godliness. So anything you get from these other books is bonus. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what we're trying to accomplish through them. So far I could imagine goals as disparate as reading them to learn (just to say you did) all the way to thinking with the great philosophers of the ages.

A 3rd issue I haven't accounted for in my mind, or can't predict, is how much a dc changes from 5th to 7th, 8th, or 9th. We have children who have been raised on meat, and I think such children may end up wanting more intellectual meat, and at an earlier age, than we did. In that sense, books that might not have crossed our minds to ask for at that age they might find NORMAL. That's VP's whole point in this, and it's something I can't really predict. In other words, I don't want to look at her now, with my sentimental eyes, and underestimate what she might find compelling in a few years. What I am trying to figure out though is what I'm trying to ACCOMPLISH via the GB study and how my lists and approach fit into that. (Ooo, occasionally I actually get things out, lol!) I could see lists based on gender, particular interests, etc., all of which might be valid as a GB study, depending on the goals.

[Colleen in NS]

Now, the next great question, again maybe so simplistic that it doesn't make sense. What IS the "Great Conversation"??? I keep reading people saying that reading GB help us to engage in the great conversation. Is it the search for meaning? Enlightenment on the issues of the ages? Perspective? The search for truth? How truth applies to modern living? Reclaiming past knowledge?

I hope that doesn't sound too bizarre. I just haven't figured it out yet. See, if you're a christian, then you already have the Scriptures, all man needs for enlightenment in truth, maturity, and godliness. So anything you get from these other books is bonus. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what we're trying to accomplish through them. So far I could imagine goals as disparate as reading them to learn (just to say you did) all the way to thinking with the great philosophers of the ages.

What I am trying to figure out though is what I'm trying to ACCOMPLISH via the GB study and how my lists and approach fit into that. (Ooo, occasionally I actually get things out, lol!) I could see lists based on gender, particular interests, etc., all of which might be valid as a GB study, depending on the goals.

There's a footnote on p. 493 of the new WTM (it's in the old WTM, I just don't know what page) that answers your question - it says that WEM recommends that the *mature* reader read through a genre one at a time, but that a high school student is studying history AND literature at the same time, so he should read chronologically regardless of genre.

As to what is the Great Conversation. Good question! I'm starting to get some foggy ideas of what it's all about, and I think your question-answers are included in what it is.

Although, for me as a Christian, I am starting to feel that I've been, how can I describe this without sounding like a "backslider" for lack of better term...feel I've been too sheltered by the Bible? I mean no disrespect towards the book and what it means to Christians. It's just that I've heard it talked about over and over again all my life, but have not been exposed to other "great books" until my life intersected with WTM and all associated books, bits, and boards.:D So now I'm curious about other books (just skimmed through some Socrates dialogs by Plato this weekend) and how they view life and ideas. I'm not sure why yet, but though I enjoyed trying to follow Socrates' thought process, it annoyed me, too. But that's the part I like, is trying to figure out *why* it annoyed me. I think it's part of the Great Conversation, that we read ideas and decide what we think and why. Back to the Bible - I'm currently in the middle of questioning some beliefs I've had about it, but I'm also trying to see the individual books in it in the context of what was going on in the world at the time the books were written. I think that's all a healthy thing to do - to think, question, and finally come to a conclusion for ourselves. Then we can "own" our opinions. Since I've been a Christian for a very long time, it's a little scary to even write this out, for fear it will come across wrong to someone, but it's where I'm at in this Conversation. And somewhere deep down, I still believe that there is One God who created all this, and that it's OK for me to question things - if He created the universe, He can handle my questions.

Anyway, yep, you probably have to decide what *your* goals are, then make your GB lists. I don't really have specific goals yet for my kids with GB, although I do want them to be pretty familiar with the Bible. But before I start GB with them, I want to get a better idea of where I'm at and what I believe.

[Michelle in AL]

Elizabeth I believe I had the same problem as you do with Omnibus, I appreciated most of their questions but felt the commentary was sometimes a little overboard and maybe too focused on Worldview (which is their worldview).

I also did not like the lack of teaching elements of literature.

I wonder if the Great Conversation refers to Adler's questions you should ask after you read a book:
What was the book about in whole and in detail.
Did you find the book beautiful?
Did you agree with the books message? If so, then you are impelled to somehow apply this to your life.

We answer these questions in my co-op class~it does make great conversation ;)

[Michelle in AL]

Here's a book about the great ideas: http://www.amazon.com/How-Think-About-Great-Ideas/dp/0812694120/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249439633&sr=8-7

Here's a good article on the Great Conversation, it's defined differently than what I thought it was.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Think-About-Great-Ideas/dp/0812694120/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249439633&sr=8-7

[OhElizabeth]

Michelle, that 2nd link was to the same amazon title. Do you have the link for that article again?

Even reading the description of that Adler book you linked to makes me realize I don't grasp what we're trying to do. So Adler was the major instigator of GB study in colleges? But was it a resurgence, a bringing back of past methods, or something new?? Maybe it was new on the scale that he advocated it? (Previous cultures and times would have had less books, more focused study, hence not so much time and focus on so many books?)

And what is the connection between Adlers philosophical statements in that book (How to Think About the Great Ideas) and the articles VP is incorporating into their O4 and up? I saw the articles mentioned in the catalog, and I didn't really get what they were for. So really, they're inspired by Adler's philosophy statements?

So then is GB really philosophy?? If GB is philosophy, then the topics matter. If it's a foundational works of history study, then the works matter. If it's a great thoughts study, well then it could be great thoughts from ANYONE, so long as they are great, meaning I could feminize it, tweak, anything I wanted. You could have a whole year of women's lit with a daughter, reading nothing but great ideas, great lives, the controversies and thoughts of WOMEN. That is, if GB is a study of great thoughts, the conversation of people, possibly more narrowly women, through the ages.

See where I'm going with this? I see lots of possibilities. Now to chew on Colleen's thoughts!

[Colleen in NS]

So then is GB really philosophy?? If GB is philosophy, then the topics matter. If it's a foundational works of history study, then the works matter. If it's a great thoughts study, well then it could be great thoughts from ANYONE, so long as they are great, meaning I could feminize it, tweak, anything I wanted. You could have a whole year of women's lit with a daughter, reading nothing but great ideas, great lives, the controversies and thoughts of WOMEN. That is, if GB is a study of great thoughts, the conversation of people, possibly more narrowly women, through the ages.

:lurk5:

[OhElizabeth]

Colleen, thanks for looking that up! That was exactly what I was trying to figure out! The answer was there all along, and I just didn't know where to look. :)

I've thought to myself, in pondering all this, that a good Bible study, a really good Bible study, is absolutely essential before launching off on such a GB endeavor. And I think it's important concurrently. And personally, I think it's important to get into a systematic theology (doctrines) book that fits your denomination and maybe even a couple that don't. It's very easy to get into deep issues (of theology, GB, the unclear questions of life) and come to incorrect conclusions for lack of information. I remember being in junior high and pondering these things, reading my Bible, wondering, hearing answers. When I got to Bible college, I learned many of the answers I had gotten in church were actually wrong, but the reasons were very subtle as to why. In other words, theology can be confusing, and it's not good to leap to conclusions. My favorite? My dh a while back suggested that obviously God wills some to eternal d**nation. LOL Not that I'm meaning to laugh if someone happens to believe that, but it's a prime example of the errant conclusion someone can draw from the absence of evidence. Calvin tried, walked right up to the line.

So yes, by all means ask tough questions, but go to sources that have really good answers. Get 2 or 3 really good systematic theology books. Some are so meaty you have to pretend you're a lawyer to plow through them (Strong's Systematic Theology), but are so great they're worth the money and effort. Some are much more accessible (Grudem-moderate, Ryrie-easy). We read all these in grad school, and they're so delish, so thought-provoking. And they're actually very easy to use. In the back of each you'll find, among the many indexes, a listing by scripture passage, making it easy to look up whatever controversy is bugging you and find it (or the fancy terms that apply) and then compare over multiple volumes and viewpoints. Strong is some strong stuff (pun intended, haha), so I highly recommend that. After that, whatever you like. I have several, and I always help my dh dig up several when he has something he wants to read about.

But how do you translate that into the knowledge of a 7th grader or high schooler? That's what I've been pondering. Even with thorough study and surveys, a 7th grader just isn't a grad school theology student. I guess that's just where we have to be on our toes and be prepared, or at least willing to say we don't know. Good sources can help, like those books I mentioned, absolutely.

I've thought that some of the resources that interest me most from O1 are the theology books. I was realizing if I saw it a bit more categorically like that (theology vs. history vs. lit), I might be able to scalpel out what I like and ditch the rest. I also think I may like the higher levels of O better than the lower. O4 really called to me in the catalog, where O1 doesn't, even in my hot little hands. That's actually led me to the theory that I could pursue my feminist GB study for a year, do a year of Shakespeare, do serious studies of the Bible and doctrines with her, then launch into the upper levels later, expanding O4-6 into 4 years to bring in a few things I liked in O1. That's just what I'm toying around with in my mind. I need to keep reading though. What I DON'T like is proof-texting, where you read something and use it as your personal springboard to talk about some miniscule element that you would like to sermonize on. It sort of misses the point of what the documents were, their context, or why they were important. And sometimes the reasons why they were important make them less important, less life-changing to a given student. That's where I go back to figuring out what the goal is. Because if the goal is to read the important, foundational documents, exploring the underlying philosophical foundations of our country, etc. (read it to say you did), then gender doesn't matter. But I think gender does matter. I think the way it impacts their heart DOES matter. I think reading journals of colonial women would be a whole lot more profitable to a girl (and no less a GB study) than reading journals of a man. Ok, maybe we can have both, hehe. But you get my point. The GB study, as presented in Omnibus, is distinctly gender and viewpoint biased (bent toward the West), and I want to know WHY and whether it has to be that way. A friend of mine, whom I respect immensely, described it as "reactionary." There's been so little GB study, so much tossing off Western values and christianity, so much multi-culturalism, that they've swung the other way. But if they lose the applicability to the HUMAN, the particular student (not generically, as in "friendship" or "love", but specifically as in seeing how your species and career path lives, breathes, and thinks), then I don't see the point. Then you're just reading to say you did. How bland.

[Pensguys]

But how do you translate that into the knowledge of a 7th grader or high schooler? That's what I've been pondering. Even with thorough study and surveys, a 7th grader just isn't a grad school theology student. I guess that's just where we have to be on our toes and be prepared, or at least willing to say we don't know. Good sources can help, like those books I mentioned, absolutely.


This is the reason that my dh and I have decided to skip those books that are deeper in the Theology (Chosen by God, Holiness of God and Unaborted Socrates...that one really because of subject matter right now) and will throw them into the mix when we get to Omni IV. It isn't that we don't want to discuss the issues between Reformed belief and ours; we just want more of a firm foundation in our beliefs before we throw something out there that even adults still debate. When he is 10th grade and we do Omni IV, he will be more mature and ready to discuss and maybe even start to understand why it is such a debated topic.

[Michelle in AL]

Elizabeth, I can't find the link to the article I found last night. Here's another I found today that discusses the history of a modern great books education and applying the great conversation to these books.

http://www.greatbooksacademy.org/great_books_movement.html

[OhElizabeth]

I remember being intensely interested about those subjects (election, predistination, etc.) at that age, so I do think the topics can be age-appropriate. But there's also a timeliness to it, that intersection of the student's budding interest and the presentation. I haven't read Chosen by God, but I bet you could balance it pretty nicely (or replace it) with something like Chosen But Free by Geisler. Is that in O1??? Now I need to look at the catalog better. That's totally illogical to cover election in O1, when it's a Calvin and church history thing (O2). See that's actually where I've thought to myself (just me, myself, and I), that VP gets themselves in a box with their order and then gets constrained to do things to fit it. For instance, their history is much better done a different way (compacted, time for other things in 6th), and their Bible even can be done other ways. That's why I'm thinking their Omnibus stuff might not be totally logical. I hadn't even gotten to the extra readings yet of O1, but you're totally right. Reading about election then is pulling a rabbit out of a hat. I guess I'll have to look the commentary up in O1 (which I have sitting right in front of me) and see what I think, hehe. Hadn't gotten to those books. I was going in more sort of a random order, hoping to force myself into the ones I don't find interesting (it was next on the shelf, gotta read it) and lure myself to the ones I do. :)

Yup, I'll go see what they do with that Chosen book. But like you say, I don't see why it's there, in O1. And I don't know if it's arrogant or self-assertion or what to say it's ok to rearrange and do things the way I like.

BTW, I think Ryrie would be accessible to a guided junior higher, certainly a high schooler. I also will look at some point at the BJU Bible course offerings to see if they have something that would do. It wouldn't take much, just a basic survey course, to lay a foundation that would allow you to see both (or all 5) sides of something in the more provocative readings.

Yup, in 7th and 8th grade I was intensely interested in these things and would have gobbled up the info. The right book at the right time, that's the key.

[OhElizabeth]

Penny, I just looked through the O1 commentary on Chosen by God, and I'm not very pleased with it. It's not handled at all carefully theologically (with attention to the precise terms, definitions, what they imply, etc.), and lots of thoughts are thrown around. It's much flip than my own tradition (church) is in discussing such things, so I'm really shocked. And the discussion questions are way out of line. It's not that I have a problem discussing those topics, but the question matters. One of the first things you learn in grad school (or college, or life), is that you're not asking the right question. That's primary when you're helping people through problems (because the things they're saying aren't necessarily their question), and it's huge in theology, where you can get lost on a rabbit trail that totally misses the POINT, the fundamental question. Terms matter, precision matters. Nope, I wouldn't even have my dd read that article in O1, sorry. :(

And is it me, or does it look like more of a Sproul lollipop than anything? (suck up, all feed at the Sproul)

[OhElizabeth]

I think you could use their TOPICS in that chapter as springboards for discussion, but the whole discussion ought to be a lot more careful and precise.

Yeah, I'm going to have to do more thinking. :(

[Colleen in NS]

OhElizabeth, you've got me thinking about a lot of things. Thanks for starting this thread and for all your posts in it.

[OhElizabeth]

Thanks Michelle for that article!!! I'm reading through it now, and it's answering tons of my questions. But I have some new ones. :)

The article says,

"But only two colleges have the entire four-year Great Books Program advocated by Adler, Buchanan et al.: St. John's Colleges and Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA ."

Have you ever seen the lists they're referring to? Are they in his Pudeia book? I was wondering how they compare to the Omnibus lists? Not so much that it matters, just a curiousity. VP has a stated goal of bringing college work into high school, so I thought maybe they followed Adler's lists to do that.

Next, the Great Conversation is starting to make sense to me, though it seems it could get lost in the Great Blog these days. It's now clear to me you wouldn't do a women's lit study (genre-based) and call it GB, so that clears that up. It's not just that the books are OLD, but that they have been referred to and communicate ideas that have been bantered about through the ages.

It seems one of their points is learning for the sake of learning (for the enjoyment, pleasure, and intellectual stimulation. That's fine to me, definitely a good thing. But is there a more broad educational philosophy goal? BJU says the purpose of education is to grow Christlikeness. So is there a goal we're shooting for, a change we're trying to affect in the student? How does reading the Odyssey or some of these things mature the student or improve them beyond intellectually?

I guess there's a certain amount of this that is going to be more obvious as I see my own dd reach that age. On the one hand I'm happy with learning for the sake of learning, and on the other I really want to see a goal it's working toward. I think probably the context-page study method of WEM is going to suit me better, with Omnibus just as a springboard, where it applies.

I think I also see the issue now, with doing O too selectively: it's the writing you're going to leave out. So what is the role of writing in a GB study? I know what SWB says and have sat in on her talks, but O seems to go a lot farther. Do students NEED to write that much? What function does writing serve in the cementing of discussions, logical thinking about topics, etc.? It seems to me, some of the things I remember best from high school are things I WROTE. Perhaps writing, thinking through the topic logically to create an outline, is part of the process? It's the getting it down so you actually remember what you pondered? Another curriculum I looked at this summer has the student journal, but that seems too informal, too open-ended to me. There ought to be logic and organization to it, at least simple paragraphs.

Well hmph, I can go in circles about Omnibus, can't I! There are things it does very well and makes easy to do well with your student, and there are things in it that are a little too flip and not exactly how I would do it.

[OhElizabeth]

Colleen, I'm glad it's helpful to you too! I used to feel funny about asking questions, then I realized if I didn't know the answer, maybe somebody else needed to know too. :)

[Julieofsardis]

My plan right now is to do the regular way of history and lit. this year through 11th grade. That would take us through modern history. For 12th grade, I'm planning to do the history section and the drama section of WEM for history and lit. I'll call the history Foundations of Philosophy in Government.

I've been wondering if there is any reason I shouldn't do this. It sounds reasonable to me.

[Michelle in AL]

Hi Elizabeth, I am not a Great Books expert, but I think the great conversation is basically tracking themes and the building of ideas through the ages. I think you can apply this in any way you want. If you want to track the role of women throughout the books I don't see why you couldn't. That's the beauty of homeschooling.

[OhElizabeth]

You're gonna laugh, but I started reading the intro for Orestria today, and it's all coming together for me. NOW I see why they included Till We Have Faces in O1 (because it's in the same genre), and now I see how the selections fit together. I still need a flowchart, because I don't know these dudes well enough to sort it all out. (Homer, Virgil, etc.) But at least it's starting to make some sense! If I know why it's in there, then I can at least make an informed decision as to whether to keep it or not. Previously, I had thought the lists were just randomly chosen classical works (mud is mud, pick any mud). Now that I see they're CONNECTED, I'm more willing to take it as a whole.

Michelle, I also went over to your blog to read a bit, something I should have done ages ago. What a gem! I just went to amazon and clicked for the Reinhold book you mentioned, so we'll see how that does for me. Sounds like it would be helpful. And yes, I see your point there that a fresh reading, closer to discussion, will be necessarily to really get into things with her. For now I'm just aiming for eyeballs on the page and some sense that I'm on the right track in my planning.

Well cool. I was just about ready to give up on Omnibus, and now it's making more sense to me. I'll keep reading and see what happens!

[Colleen in NS]

It's not just that the books are OLD, but that they have been referred to and communicate ideas that have been bantered about through the ages

BJU says the purpose of education is to grow Christlikeness. So is there a goal we're shooting for, a change we're trying to affect in the student? How does reading the Odyssey or some of these things mature the student or improve them beyond intellectually?

I think probably the context-page study method of WEM is going to suit me better...

What function does writing serve in the cementing of discussions, logical thinking about topics, etc.? It seems to me, some of the things I remember best from high school are things I WROTE. Perhaps writing, thinking through the topic logically to create an outline, is part of the process?

Colleen, I'm glad it's helpful to you too! I used to feel funny about asking questions, then I realized if I didn't know the answer, maybe somebody else needed to know too. :)

Well, I'm sure glad you started asking, because I've really enjoyed this thread. I like how you are asking, and then starting to answer your own questions, and you've sure given me a lot of food for thought. I feel sometimes when I start a thread, like an idiot, because the things I ask seem to be obvious to everyone else - a lot of times I just need reassurance that my thinking is going somewhere and to just read my thoughts out there in cyberspace, and mix others' thoughts in with them.

Your understanding of the GC is the same as I have.

As to goal we are shooting for...SWB said something at the PHP conf. that struck me - that with GB in high school, we are just introducing them to GB and how to study them - they might not "get" the things we hope they "get," but they will have been introduced and taught how to study, so they can do it themselves later. But I also imagine that we'd also talk about our own ideas with our kids and hope that some of our convictions would rub off on them, too, in the context of our relationship with them.

I like the context-page study method, too. It's eventually what I want to do with the Bible at least.

Oh yeah, writing is a great way to cement what you think! Think about when you are typing a post - you think, you compose, you change wording around, you process your thoughts until they come out the way you want them to. I find this when I post here, and also with my latest project of making a "list of facts" with the KF history book. My list of facts is going a little beyond the 6-8/page spread as rec'd. for middle grade kids in the WTM, but my brain is enjoying picking things out, condensing facts, and figuring out how to make each number on the list into one sentence that is grammatically correct. And the result of that process is that I am understanding the flow of history a tiny smidge more than a month ago. It's not tackling Don Quixote yet (although I did try a few years ago), but it's progress for me. I'm getting to love this writing process because of what it does.

Thanks for the great thread!

[OhElizabeth]

You know, that "introduction" comment is really interesting, because VP is trying to take it a lot further. Think with me... Their entire book count over the 6 years of Omnibus is going to be what, 60-80 GB? 100? Adler and his pals had narrowed it down to like 150 (from that article, to lazy to look it up exactly), so that's a huge chunk of the GB! What's left? Why bother to go to college??

I'm being facecious here, but there is a sense in which our goals DO dictate what we're doing, how much, the pace, etc.

There's something else I haven't resolved in my mind, which maybe people would like to jump in on. To what extent, when you do a *heavy* load of GB, are you missing other books, more typical books for the age? For instance, The Count of Monte Cristo, is O going to have us read that? And what about russian lit (Dosteovsky, etc.)? There are whole realms of things that don't count as GB but that people, educated people, know, enjoy, and READ IN HIGH SCHOOL. Sure, high school is not the only time to read them, but it's when that seed is sown. People have commented about their kids reading advanced stuff when they were little (K5, 1st, 2nd) and missing out on the "classics" more typical to the age and how much they regretted that. Well I'm wondering if there are whole categories of things you're shoving out if you get imbalanced and do too much GB.

Or put another way, is our goal an introduction or a college level History of Rome class???

I think you can have BOTH the GB *and* the good books, the diverse books. Nuts, maybe in someone's realm, the things that we call merely good books *are* GB. If you can read Anna Karenina and sum up the entirety of a region for generations, doesn't that make it a GB? If a book impacts your life for years and years (or eternally), doesn't that make it a GB? It might not make *Adler's* GB list, but I still think it can be a GB. Oh, but then I'm sounding like SL, hehe. Actually, I was noticing lately how closely the SL and VP catalogs overlap.

Yes, it's nice to be able to talk through these things here. Sometimes there's just some little piece to the puzzle missing before it all comes together and becomes clear. And I think we're all drawn to multiple things, hence the conflict. We both want it all spelled out and we want it customized. We want it to have lots of discussion and communicate our hearts, but we want it to include an answer key. We want it topnotch, but we don't have the brainpower or time or whatever to give in getting there ourselves.

It's supposed to be nice tomorrow. Maybe I'll get to read some more.

[Michelle in AL]

For us, what I do is look at several great books and recommended reading lists. I look at Omnibus, TOG, and the WTM along with AP & College board reading lists. Then I choose the best for each period of history we're studying. This yr, we're reading 5 great books and about 8 historical fiction.
Even if you decide to stick with Omnibus through the yrs you can still feel free to substitute and swap titles.

I think Omnibus does include some of the children's classics such as The Chronicles of Narnia, Tolkein etc. that aren't considered great books.

[Colleen in NS]

And I think we're all drawn to multiple things, hence the conflict. We both want it all spelled out and we want it customized. We want it to have lots of discussion and communicate our hearts, but we want it to include an answer key. We want it topnotch, but we don't have the brainpower or time or whatever to give in getting there ourselves.

Your whole post is why I hope to stay away from study guides and answer keys and such for lit. study. I know if I had a guide/curriculum staring at me, I'd feel compelled to *finish* it. And yet I don't want my kids or myself to feel that reading is something that has to be checked off. I want us to enjoy it (or be able to say why we aren't enjoying it and find another book if we want), talk about it, and to want to go on to another book and another, all through our lives.

And I don't think that GB should crowd out other reading. How would they have time to leisurely browse through a cool science book or an obscure biography of someone who is going through cancer treatment or something like that?

I began homeschooling because of a newfound love for reading (after years and YEARS of not reading unless I *had* to for a class), thanks to my Mom and two friends who introduced me to the library, yes the library. The library was not part of my life growing up, except the Nancy Drews that I ordered from the Bookmobile and Books-by-mail. So anyway, I've worked hard since ds was a baby to instill a love for reading in my kids, and I don't want to kill that off for a GB booklist. I'll take the GB lists, the WTM/WEM, and teach my kids how they can study them deeper, but I don't think I'll make them dissect every GB. Just some. And I'll probably give some choice of GB.

Ds already feels programmed enough:lol: with me making him do math, grammar, and Latin (and even these I try to eliminate tasks that I think are unnecessary) - I try to allow a lot of flexibility within an overall framework of varied reading. I know he's nowhere near high school yet, but for example, I started reading a version of Beowulf to him and dd the other night. Next week I plan to ask him a couple of analysis questions and help him form an opinion, but I might just use a chapter or two instead of the whole book. He may or may not add in thoughts from other parts of the book, and I'm fine with that. I just want to show him bits at a time about how to think through what he's reading. So I'm guessing that will get more detailed in high school, but I really don't want to spend weeks on one book, esp. if they are not enjoying it. The other reason is that I really don't feel adequate to delve deeply into many books. This is a new journey for me.

So, yeah, I guess it does depend on your goals.

[Cedarmom]

You know, that "introduction" comment is really interesting, because VP is trying to take it a lot further. Think with me... Their entire book count over the 6 years of Omnibus is going to be what, 60-80 GB? 100? Adler and his pals had narrowed it down to like 150 (from that article, to lazy to look it up exactly), so that's a huge chunk of the GB! What's left? Why bother to go to college??

I'm There's something else I haven't resolved in my mind, which maybe people would like to jump in on. To what extent, when you do a *heavy* load of GB, are you missing other books, more typical books for the age? For instance, The Count of Monte Cristo, is O going to have us read that? Or put another way, is our goal an introduction or a college level History of Rome class???

ore.


The amount of books seemed overwhelming to me. We did not do all of the readings in Omnibus But my son wants to one day, on his own. I count that as a victory!

I would say it's an introduction. Part of me wishes we had read more books. But my son has come away with the desire to read more great books. As far as other books, I think Great Books prepares them. When my son struggled through Herodotus, he gained confidence as well as increasing his reading level. I buy him books (for fun) such as the Count of Monte Cristo, Three Musketeers, or Silmarilion. The size or wordiness or the book does not overwhelm him, because he has chunked through other hard books. I think because of great Books he is more likely to read good books
It's supposed to be nice tomorrow. Maybe I'll get to read some more.[/QUOTE]

I loved your insight about Omnibus. S0metimes it is helpful,sometimes is is too flip. That is how I feel. But it held my hand when I first started, and now I can just use it as a spring board.I am also relying more and more on WEM.Next year I may just read the intro's to the books, then at the end do WEM questions and answer a few of the Omnibus essays

[OhElizabeth]

Thank you, thank you, thank you CedarMom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's EXACTLY what I needed to hear. You're making perfect sense (and agreeing with what the other people have said, just hadn't seen it this way), that reading these significantly harder works makes the other lit a breeze and pleasure. In other words, dd will still read other stuff on her own, haha. Don't know why that hadn't occurred to me. I think it was the austere reputation (this takes so many hours, is so rigorous, blah blah, so obviously students are worn out and have time for nothing else).

And YES, that's exactly where I'm coming out, with my own reading, that I could use the intros from Omnibus, methods in WEM, and do discussion (and writing?) from O. So what is your take on the writing in O? And do you do something like CW alongside? Do you do the O writing assignments? By the time you do the context pages and whatnot, you already have in some writing...

Yup, you're confirming pretty much what I've been thinking, that if I get on top of the content and feel confident enough, I could USE the big O, rather than having it drive me. And when I'm using it that way, along with SWB's oh so sensible techniques and O's helpful commentary and springboards, it ought to work out just fine. But if I just tried to do O straight (or do an O class), it probably wouldn't suit me.

[Cedarmom]

Thank you, thank you, thank you CedarMom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's EXACTLY what I needed to hear. You're making perfect sense (and agreeing with what the other people have said, just hadn't seen it this way), that reading these significantly harder works makes the other lit a breeze and pleasure. In other words, dd will still read other stuff on her own, haha. Don't know why that hadn't occurred to me. I think it was the austere reputation (this takes so many hours, is so rigorous, blah blah, so obviously students are worn out and have time for nothing else).

And YES, that's exactly where I'm coming out, with my own reading, that I could use the intros from Omnibus, methods in WEM, and do discussion (and writing?) from O. So what is your take on the writing in O? And do you do something like CW alongside? Do you do the O writing assignments? By the time you do the context pages and whatnot, you already have in some writing...

.

I'm glad what i said was helpful. I sometimes feel like I'm on a tightrope. I want my son to have a classical education, and that is rigorous. But, I also want him to have time to read other books and pursue his other goals and dreams.

For writing , I felt like my son did need more writing instruction, so we supplemented. The first year, when we did the progymm. writing from O., I helped ALOT, we did an outline together, discussed answers, then he went and wrote them. Later, he was able to work more independently. We would do one of the writing activites mid book. The test at the end we did as essays. We did all the questions at the end of the day as oral discussion. The Summa we mainly did orally, though once in a while I would have him write a short essay on it. I tweaked the schedule in writing. At the beginning I tweaked the writing schedule. We would take a couple of days off reading, and just concentrate on writing. My son is not a natural writer, and it helped him to be able to focus on one thing. As a 14 yr. old there were only so many brain cells, and once that gone....:001_smile:The awesome thing is, looking back I can see how much my son really has gained. Did he understand it all? No.But he is starting to make connections and he wants to continue great books on his own.

[Colleen in NS]

As a 14 yr. old there were only so many brain cells, and once that gone....:001_smile:The awesome thing is, looking back I can see how much my son really has gained. Did he understand it all? No.But he is starting to make connections and he wants to continue great books on his own.

This is so encouraging to read!!!!!

Great thread, Elizabeth.

[Elohcin]

I cannot tell you how encouraging this post is to someone who is heading this direction next year (where does the time go?). I now just need to decide if this is something I can tackle on my own or whether I want to let her take Bruce Etter's class at VP. If I didn't have five behind her I would love to tackle this, but I am not sure I can do this well. On the other hand....who knows. Ahh... indecision.
Thanks to all for the great conversation! Keep it up.

[prairiegirl]

I probably shouldn't even be posting this as I am a few years away from implementing the Great Books but I have been giving this much thought. I have been jumping back and forth as to how I want to do the Great Books. I, too, was going to do Omnibus but it's just too rigid for me. I didn't always like their book choices.

I think I am going to piece things together and go out on my own. I would really like to use the book list from Hick's Norms and Nobility and combine that with some of the books from Ambleside's book suggestions. I just didn't know what else to do besides reading the book and discussing. In reading this thread, I really like how Michelle prepares and carries out each book, so I think I will follow her lead (Thanks Michelle!)

To my way of thinking, the Great Conversation is based on the Great Ideas (Truth, Justice, Beauty, I have a list but I can't find it right now) Adler's The Six Great Ideas might give you a jumpstart on this. I haven't read it yet but it in on my wishlist.

To my understanding, Hick's book list for Gr. 7 and 8 are, for the most part, based on one theme. Gr. 7 reading is about leadership. Gr. 8 books focus on Justice. I don't know whether the later years are based in this way but I like that the books in the first two years focus on one theme.

This has been a great thread. My brain is a bit fried from reading this one and Colleen's thread about SWB's article on the general board. It is threads like these that get me all fired up about educating my kids. Thanks for the 'conversation.'

[Kfamily]

Julia,
I'm trying to do something very similar (combine AO with Norms and Nobility but I'm also throwing in book selections from CW-:lol:) so if you ever get around to creating a booklist for years 7 and 8 sometime soon (since I've got a 7th grader this year) I would love if you would share it.


Michele, I have your Omnibus site bookmarked and really appreciate the work you've put into it. Thanks for sharing it!:001_smile:

Elizabeth,

I have really been considering purchasing Ominibus but my plan was to use it as a resouce only. I would use it for a book individually as we got to it. I've been putting it off since it is so pricey. I did purchase Figuratively Speaking and the Walch Toolbox Poetry and Prose and these will be helpful too. I think I will end up with more than I need or can use but will have to go through this just to figure out what I like and what works for us. Thank you for this thread. It has been very helpful to me too.

[prairiegirl]

[QUOTE=Kfamily;1122983]Julia,
I'm trying to do something very similar (combine AO with Norms and Nobility but I'm also throwing in book selections from CW-:lol:) so if you ever get around to creating a booklist for years 7 and 8 sometime soon (since I've got a 7th grader this year) I would love if you would share it.


I guess this is where I show my geekiness. Even though my oldest is just starting Gr. 5, I have already made a booklist of what I would like to cover for Gr. 7 & 8. I am not sure if this list is realistic in terms of having time to cover everything but I am hoping to give it a valiant try. This is what I have put together from N&N and AO.

Gr. 7
Pursuit of God--Tozer
Pursuit of Holiness--Bridges
The Birth of Britain--Churchill (spine)
The Once and Future King--White
Sir Gawain and the Green Knigh--Tolkien
Idylls of the King--Tennyson
A Conneticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court
A History of the English Church (excerpts)--Bede
Beowulf
Ivanhoe--Scott
Magna Carta
Richard II--Shakespeare
Joan of Arc--Twain
Whatever Happened to Penny Candy--Maybury
LIfe of the Spider--Fabre
I am not sure if we are are going attempt More's Utopia or not.


Gr. 8
Evidence that Demands a Verdict--McDowell
Mind of the Maker--Sayer
The New World Pts 2 & 3--Churchill (spine)
The Tempest--Shakespeare
Doctor Faustus--Marlowe
The Piligrim's Progress--Bunyan
Declaration of Independence--Jefferson
A Tale of Two Cities--Dickens
Billy Budd--Melville
Great Expectations--Dickens
Whatever Happened to Justice?--Maybury
Rural Cooper-Cooper
Pride and Prejudice--Austen
Innocence of Father Brown--Chesterton
Space Trilogy--Lewis

[Michelle in AL]

Julia, I have never heard of Norms & Nobility before! I wish I could "See inside" it at amazon. Does it have a themed book list for each grade? My theme for this yr is righteous rule (government).

I forgot to add in my prep list that I also apply lessons from Windows to the World to what we're reading to cover literary analysis and to teach literary elements.

[Kathie in VA]

I'm just starting our GB studies this year with my 9th and 8th grader (& will have the K and 4th grader read simple narrations of some of them). It's been very hard to pick our path but for now I'm going to try a WTM/WEM approach. Since we are still studying history, we will do them in chron order verses genre (although I do see how that could work also... but we don't have the history down well enough to make those connections on our own yet). However the biggest stumbling block I have is with CW. We are up to Diogenes this year & will be doing the online tutorial combining maxium & crea. At this level they include suggested GB. So now here is a list based not on genre or history but on type of writing. Well this is sort of like by genre but a bit more specific. I think the choices for Diogenes will focus on essays since that is the focus for the writing on that level. As much as I'm tempted to just use these for our GB study, I still feel we'll miss out by not doing them in chron order. At this point I'm thinking of doing a couple of the GB along with our Ancient history studies and maybe just read thru the ones CW suggests w/o analysis (maybe not even all 10 of them). It really is hard to figure this out, especially when I haven't read most of these myself yet.


........
To what extent, when you do a *heavy* load of GB, are you missing other books, more typical books for the age?
....... I think you can have BOTH the GB *and* the good books, the diverse books. Nuts, maybe in someone's realm, the things that we call merely good books *are* GB. ... If a book impacts your life for years and years (or eternally), doesn't that make it a GB? It might not make *Adler's* GB list, but I still think it can be a GB.
.... We both want it all spelled out and we want it customized. We want it to have lots of discussion and communicate our hearts, but we want it to include an answer key. We want it topnotch, but we don't have the brainpower or time or whatever to give in getting there ourselves.
...


There's a lot of good points here. There are many typical high school books that I want to be careful to include ... although if I can line them up with history that might be great too ;). I also looked at and like Omnibus but for now I don't want to feel rushed and I don't want to feel the need/want to skip thru a curriculum (it leads my kids to always want to skip material ;) ). I do realize that Omni's secondary readings seems to be an effort to include the 'good books' but it's just all too much for us at this point.

And yes, to have it all lined up for me as customized as I would like .... hmm a pick up and go chron history w/GBs that line up chronologically and enhance our CW studies and leave time for the inclusion of the 'good books' & time for the rest of high school coursework -college bound of course-- ... oops, I was dreaming again.:lol:

Looking forward to this 'great conversation' ... and learning where all our ideas have developed from...

--Kathie

[OhElizabeth]

Ok, now you've thrown me a curveball. I didn't realize CW includes GB lists in the upper level! Well what are they like? Can I see them somewhere? And what's the word on the street with them, how are they meant to be used? You do the CW GB for lit and then do a separate history? (I just mean people in general.) Guess I should go to their boards and see...

[Kathie in VA]

Well CW uses models from great writing (which you know) but I gather at the upper levels they model a portion of a piece but read the whole thing. Now this reading is all optional to the program. No wait I just re-read the list I have and they are "highly recommended with a few that are optional" ... whatever that means. I've been trying to determine whether to do a WTM/WEM study on these pieces since we will be studying it or portions of it for CW anyway... but like I said it does mess up the idea of reading them in chron order.... ug. I guess since the WTM/WEM approach will have us read background on each piece first (well, actually CW does have the student read background info also) we could just maintain a timeline and do our history separately. ug. soo confused. :001_huh: :confused:

Here's a link to the CW Diogenes board on the lit http://lene.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=diogenes&action=display&thread=1198

Here's a link on CW literature in general for all levels:
http://home.att.net/~classicalwriting/Literature.htm

[OhElizabeth]

Thanks for that link! Those lists are very interesting! The authors they list briefly on the Diogenes page (not under lit but the writing page) are very mature some of them, like Erasmus. VP O doesn't put Erasmus till high school. Do you know how Lene and the others are implementing this? Maybe they do these readings *and* history readings?

You know, at some point it gets insane. You can't take science kids and turn them into history majors. You have to be reasonable and a bit well-rounded. A history kid may turn out to study science in college or a science kid go some other way.

BTW, thanks to the other poster for the N&N suggestion. I have heard of it, not seen it, and too wish they had samples on amazon. I didn't realize it has booklists. Does anyone know Hicks' particular viewpoint or how it affects the book? (christian, pagan, judeo-christian morality, mormon, etc.)

So now we have three options: read by genre, read by time period, read by character focus. Wowsers! It seems to me the character focus would be helpful in selecting secondary and more "lit" type readings (pleasure, piles around), where time period would be for the lit you specify (history), and then you might try to get some repetition within the genre in your history selections. I don't know if you can do the CW GB readings on top of Omnibus, mercy. I've written Heather in VA to find out, since she's doing or planning both. :)

What a lot to think about!!!

[Kfamily]

I have to admit-it is so nice to have company with this craziness! I have been going back and forth with this all year and thought I was really weird or something. (I tend to overthink things sometimes and then there it is right in front of me...sometimes! Unfortunately, this is still not in front of me but I have come to some small amount of peace about this and have a plan that is at least functional although not pretty.)

Here is what I came up with for our 7th grade:

(AO does draw from Norms and Nobility but follows a different plan chronologically for one thing- so there is some overlap here.)

Our plan is further messed up because my dd is behind in the CW series by one year...:lol:...so we don't start our GB with CW (which starts with Maxim) until 8th grade. So our 8th grade year begins the inclusion of CW books.

Spines-Story of France, Story of England, Story of the Middle Ages(my own choice)
Saints and Heroes vol.1 (AO)
English Literature for Boys and Girls (AO)
King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table (AO)
Ivanhoe (AO and N&N)
Bulfinch's Mythology (AO)
Puck of Pook's Hill (AO)
Canterbury Tales Retold (AO)
Joan of Arc (AO)
Daughter of Time (AO)
Henry V (my own choice)
Keats, Tennyson, Longfellow (includes poetry suggested by N&N)
Documents (from AO)
Magna Carta (N&N)
Idylls of the King (N&N and AO)
The Crusades (my own choice)
Arabs in the Golden Age (my own choice)

My plan for dealing with CW was to decide that it was important to me to include the reading (esp. the recommended) until we are far enough into it to decide if we need to set them up or not. I wrote a basic chart with 3 categories-I had one for CW books, one for AO choice and one for other books I wanted to include/N&N book choices. My rough plan for chronological order is this:
7th-middle ages
8th-renaissance-early modern
9th-ancients
10th-middle ages-renaissance
11th-American history
12th-modern

HTH

[prairiegirl]

Michelle, N&N is a treatise on Classical Education. It is an extremely hard read. It took me 3 years to finally get through it's 100 pages. The jewel, though, (imo) is the curriculum proposal in the back. I love the humanities book lists.

The book lists are for Gr. 7 -- 12. I know a few families who are using these suggestions so that is why I know that the first two years are themed. (now that I think of it, I think Gr.8's theme is gov't, not justice.) I am not sure if the highschool years are themed or not.

Ambleside's Year 7 and up are loosely based on Hick's suggestions. Their Yr. 7 is quite similar. But after that, AO's time frame is different than Hicks so the suggestions are different. Hicks does Medieval in Gr. 7, 1600--early 1800 for Gr. 8, then goes back to Ancients for Gr. 9. This is why I liked Hicks suggestions because I would like to do the entire history cycle for high school.

[prairiegirl]

Kfamily, who is the author of your spines? Both AO and and N&N have Churchill for their spine but it is hard to find so I am open to other suggestions.

I didn't realize CW has a GB list as well. sigh Now I need to factor that in as well. Oh well, I will cross that bridge when we get to it. ;)

I have enjoyed this thread a great deal. It has helped calm my obsessive mind.:D

[Kfamily]

Julia,

Thank you so much for sharing your booklists. I really wanted to have dd read the Churchill spine and Ecc. History of the English People (Bede) but I was worried they would be too much for her. I do have them both and have considered using them as a read aloud but I want her to read them herself so I will put them in 10th when we get to it again. Also, because we are behind in CW we will not get to Herodotus until 10th and this is when CW will cover Ecc. History of English People so for once something worked out.:001_smile:

We are using The Story of France by Mary MacGregor with The Story of England and The Story of the Middle Ages both by Samuel B. Harding. These are narrative style books but dd loves old books and especially this style. She is really excited to use them and I am using this excitement as a place to start stepping up her studies.

Good job on reading all of N&N-I still haven't finished it. Is this where he tells you the theme focus for each year?

[Michelle in AL]

Thanks Julia, it sounds like a great book!

[oliveview]

This has been a great thread. Thank you all for your wisdom. I have been feeling this generalized angst about much of the future direction of our studies, even though our children are young. For months I have been trying to identify the source of the angst. Well, you ladies identified it for me. I have had this muddy vision of the integration of a GB study, literature, history, and even religion. I think partly from a lack of understanding of the concept of the Great Conversation and how it relates to the GB. Then, part of it coming from the nagging feeling of how much I need to prepare my mind and heart for the upcoming challenge of such a curriculum. I don't have anything to add to what has been said, but I do want to share that I was able to have a very good talk with my dh tonight about the direction of our school and it was a direct result of this thread. I feel like I have a starting place now. I am going to get N&N a possibly a few other titles mentioned. Thanks so much to you all.

Now I have to go to bed so I can get up early for my DQ reading! :lol:

[elegantlion]

Kfamily, who is the author of your spines? Both AO and and N&N have Churchill for their spine but it is hard to find so I am open to other suggestions.

I didn't realize CW has a GB list as well. sigh Now I need to factor that in as well. Oh well, I will cross that bridge when we get to it. ;)

I have enjoyed this thread a great deal. It has helped calm my obsessive mind.:D

I'm enjoying this thread as well as I journey in my own GB adventure and plan for my ds.

If the Churchill books are History of English Speaking People then B&N has reprinted them. (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=history+of+the+english-speaking+peoples&box=history%20of%20the%20english-speaking%20peoples&pos=-1) I can find vol 2,3,&4 in print, vol 1 as a download.

[Kathie in VA]

I'm still thinking about this. Like I said earlier, I like the idea of reading the GB chronologically but also like the idea from Classical Writing where we will read some of the GB to learn more about our writing lessons. I just came to an interesting thought. Many of the GB lists say that they are not complete, each person tends to pick different ones. Also I read often that the purpose for reading the GBs is to join the Great Conversation. This is why the order and specific choices seem to vary so much ... they are just tools. The 'pegs' of the information learned in each will get connected into the goal, the Great Conversation, no matter which tool or order is chosen. The secondary goals (learning how to learn from difficult pieces and learning and practicing rhetoric skills) will also be met no matter which tool or order is chosen. It seems, a completely random selection of GB would probably still lead to the goals. Though, I think that a random selection misses out on the opportunity to also meet goals in other subjects like history, literature, or writing. And this is where we get lost ... which other subjects should receive the broadening that a joint GB study could give them?
:lurk5:

Here's what I'm thinking at the moment, for me this year. I'm thinking of doing just a couple of GB to coincide with our Ancient history via WTM/WEM and we'll do all 10 of the GB 'recommended' readings for the CW m/c class. I might pull some of the methods from WTM/WEM for some of the CW choices but some we will probably just read through. I may even bring in some ideas from Teaching the Classics (since I already have it) and maybe some seminars from The Teaching Company's Great Courses since my library has them.

[HollyinNNV]

SWB said in her WEM convention talk (which I assume is the jist of her book) and in her article in the new MP catalog to read a genre, any genre, across time. So I guess I'm asking if this is something students are supposed to do for high school GB study, or is it only a method of self-study for adults who are less likely to perservere when not interested? I don't actually have a copy of WEM myself, so I don't know what she says there.


Only speaking to this part of your post-reading a/any genre across time sounds weird, inefficient, and impractical. So-maybe I'm not understanding what you mean? :D Sounds like you mean to read plays from Sophocles to Miller. Then you might read epic poetry from Virgil to ? (modern equivalent-is there one?)

If that is what we are talking about-no-I would not do this with a student and I would not subject myself to that either.

The weird factor for me is that a genre does not exist in a vacuum. Authors of plays do not just affect other authors of plays. And allusions to plays don't just happen in other plays. And Shakespeare did not only write plays, he also wrote poetry. And a play in 1800 does not necessarily transition or illuminate a play that happens in 1850.

So, why study Shakespeare on the play go-round and then separately on the poetry go-round and then potentially ignore him on the allegory go-round when you hit Spenser? This seems inefficient.

And the big elephant in the room-the novel go-round. How looooooong is that going to last?

I think the whole thing is impractical. Don't bring me along for the poetry go-round. I can do about 5 weeks of sustained poetry and then give me a good novel! I can do enlightenment essays for about 5 weeks, then I need a break. My students feel the same way.
Holly

[Kfamily]

Kathie,
I completely agree with you that the Great Books are tools to having great thoughts, conversations and great writing. I think the hardest part for me has been arranging a curriculum based on Great Books meanwhile I haven't read most of them myself. It is hard to know which poem, essay or other books complements an idea from one book or contrasts with it. I wish I could find a resource that listed all the great books, a summary and background history of it, discussion questions, essay questions and at the very end a list of books, essays, poetry that will enhance the reading. This list would also include some biography and nonfiction supplements. Since I haven't found that yet I guess I will just have to content myself with various resources pulled together. I think, for me, it is about finding the various roads to get to some of the many ideas from a Great Book. I plan on sticking with CW because I am confident that it will not only help me produce a good writer but will also be one of those roads I can use to have access to the Great Books. It may make our readings more eclectic but I rather that than not to have at least one road of access that I can count on. Does that makes sense?:confused:

[OhElizabeth]

Holly, the cons of exclusively genre-driven GB study make sense, the way you explain them. I think the reading lists in CW will satisfy what I was wanting (a way to use genre study of GB to impact writing) without being overmuch. Someone told me it's possible to do BOTH the CW reading and Omnibus reading, that the lists overlap. I don't know, haven't compared them yet. Actually, my next goal is to start looking at the writing assignments in Omnibus and really working backward in my mind about what we need to be doing to get there.

Just as an aside, I didn't get why VP takes the time to read aloud these books in their Omnibus classes until I got to Aesychlus (Greek tragedy). This dude is much better read aloud than silently, really comes alive.

[OhElizabeth]

Ding, ding, ding, I can answer this one!! You need the Barron Study Guide Greek and Roman Classics by Meyer Reinhold. It has chapters in outline form for the history, the genres, the authors, their works, and interpretation.

Also, don't underestimate the value of free resources (wikipedia, free study guides like sparknotes, etc.) and just plain reading the introductions to the books. The introductions usually have spoilers and clue you in to the major issues. I always read them, but I'm sort of a nut for these things. (Actually, I don't know why I read them. I just like the intro essays, even on pleasure books, lol.)

[Kathie in VA]

Only speaking to this part of your post-reading a/any genre across time sounds weird, inefficient, and impractical.
...
The weird factor for me is that a genre does not exist in a vacuum. Authors of plays do not just affect other authors of plays. And allusions to plays don't just happen in other plays. And Shakespeare did not only write plays, he also wrote poetry. And a play in 1800 does not necessarily transition or illuminate a play that happens in 1850.
.....
Holly

Holly, from my brief reading of WEM, I think SWB was writing to an audience of adults who want to learn about literature specifically. It is not recommended for high schoolers because they are still learning history and need to make those basic connections first. So, for those that want to understand literature itself, they study each genre separately. They seek to learn the development of each genre by delving into them. Read what that genre is and then read who started using it, when this occurred, and why. You read the earliest pieces from that genre and then move through time to see how it may have changed and try to discover why. I gather that after some of this type of study you could come away with a much stronger understanding of that particular genre then you would have with a different path. There are trends in that are are harder to see if you constantly switch genres.

That said, I don't think I'm ready a year of just one genre either. I'm still learning/teaching basic history and writing skills; so for us bouncing genres will be okay for now. Perhaps I'll try this as a self study in a few years.

Kathie,
..... I think the hardest part for me has been arranging a curriculum based on Great Books meanwhile I haven't read most of them myself.

It is hard to know which poem, essay or other books complements an idea from one book or contrasts with it. I wish I could find a resource that listed all the great books, a summary and background history of it, discussion questions, essay questions and at the very end a list of books, essays, poetry that will enhance the reading. This list would also include some biography and nonfiction supplements.
.....
I think, for me, it is about finding the various roads to get to some of the many ideas from a Great Book. I plan on sticking with CW because I am confident that it will not only help me produce a good writer but will also be one of those roads I can access to the Great Books. It may make our readings more eclectic but I rather that than not to have at least one road of access that I can count on. Does that makes sense?:confused:

;) I haven't read them yet either! I'm with you on that one. I'm using the WTM list as a basic guide for which GB to read per history cycle. There are many roads to these GB, and they keep changing! I'm also going to stick to CW but to satisfy my craving to link to history I think I'll have the kids mark their timelines with the GBs that they read so they can see when it occurred and what else occurred at that time.

...... I think the reading lists in CW will satisfy what I was wanting (a way to use genre study of GB to impact writing) without being overmuch. Someone told me it's possible to do BOTH the CW reading and Omnibus reading, that the lists overlap. ....

I thought about doing both VP and CW readings but for us I think it's too much... yes some books overlap but not at the same time.

Ding, ding, ding, I can answer this one!! You need the Barron Study Guide Greek and Roman Classics by Meyer Reinhold. It has chapters in outline form for the history, the genres, the authors, their works, and interpretation.

Also, don't underestimate the value of free resources (wikipedia, free study guides like sparknotes, etc.) and just plain reading the introductions to the books. The introductions usually have spoilers and clue you in to the major issues. I always read them, but I'm sort of a nut for these things. (Actually, I don't know why I read them. I just like the intro essays, even on pleasure books, lol.)

Ooh, thanks for the resource I'll make note of it. I was just looking for something to help besides WEM. WEM does offer small descriptions, btw, for many of the books. I was also considering Invitation to the Classics, but I'll have to see how it compares with what you just mentioned.

[Kfamily]

Thank you Elizabeth! I will look that one up. I agree with you on the free resouces too. I also have WTM, WEM, How to Read a Book and Invitation to the Classics. Among all of these and free study guides, etc all I need now is a week of uninterupted silence to study and read them....hmmm...wishful thinking on that last part!!:D

[Kathie in VA]

...... all I need now is a week of uninterupted silence to study and read them....hmmm...wishful thinking on that last part!!:D

:lol: Oh, I can sooo relate! :lol:

[OhElizabeth]

Yup, that's why I'm starting NOW, while I have a chance!

[Another Lynn]

:lurk5:

I couldn't sleep last night (too much caffeine :tongue_smilie:) and stumbled on this thread. I need to come down to high school/self-ed more often! Great thread! I'd love to hear more. Just curious.... OhE - did you look at Starting Points too and how would you compare it to other things discussed here? I haven't started looking ahead yet, but I count myself blessed to glean from the discussion and experience here.

[OhElizabeth]

Yes, I've looked at SP some... Do you know you can see extensive samples of it on their website? I guess when I looked at it in person it didn't call to me. That's really subjective. I WANTED to like it, because in theory I agree with them (on goals, etc.). But in practicality, I didn't think it looked the most obvious how to implement, it didn't give me tools and options like Omnibus, and it seemed stuck in comprehension level. It also seemed very one-track, like if you got the approach then you could have thought it up yourself. I want a guide that gives me MORE than what I could have done myself.

But like I said, I wanted to like it. It may be much better than I'm perceiving. I may be concluding too quickly. I went to a talk with them at the convention, and that left me disenchanted too. It was one of those things where they had a great thesis, great ideas, and wasted too much of my time getting there. I literally got up and walked out.

So I don't have a clue what I'm going to do. Right now I'm reading the Omnibus books, because I figure the only way to know is to read them for myself. I also want to withhold judgment till I get closer to time and see how she matures. It's really a question of where her thought is and whether this material fits her. I'm not sure I'll know that till I get closer. In other words, I'm in denial. I'm gonna enjoy 5th grade as if it's another year of K5 and pretend junior high isn't coming. :)