Let's say teaching credentials were required of homeschooling parents...

[Colleen]

Tossing this out there for the sake of discussion. Let's say, hypothetically, homeschooling parents were required by law to gain teaching credentials. (This is purely hypothetically. I don't foresee this happening, regardless of the current drama in CA.) Would you abide by such a law? Those of you who would "go underground", so to speak, what's your beef against such a requirement? (I am not looking for red herring arguments e.g. lamenting the fact that some credentialed teachers do a poor job, etc.) Those of you who would follow such requirements, please share your three pennies, too.

[Bess]

Well, it wouldn't be a matter of gettting just any old teaching credential...one would have to get one for each grade they intend to teach. And then for highschool...one for every subject taught. That's my understanding of things anyway.

[sdWTMer]

Well, I guess that if it was secondary & primary it would be okay. But each subject? Hmmm.

I need to think more on this one.

[Shannon]

I imagine that cost would be a prohibitive factor for many people, especially if it was the same process public school teachers have to go through. (Depending on the state, that is.)

Shannon

[Daisy]

Here would be my beef with it.

1) I've already spent $40,000 on my degree and don't need to spend that again in order to be better able to teach my children.

2) I know for a fact that getting a teaching credential does very little to prepare a teacher to actually teach in a classroom. What makes a good teacher is experience. I've got that.

3) I have problems with any country or state that would say I have to "pay" for the right to educate my children. It is my right, period.

[dangermom]

I don't see how it could be done, from a practical standpoint. A huge amount of a teaching credential is crowd control, how to handle a classroom, plus educational theory and so on. A lot of it doesn't apply to homeschoolers anyway. And as above, if you have an elementary certificate what do you do when you get to high school?

I think they'd have to come up with a special kind of certificate just for people planning to homeschool! If they wanted it to be any kind of useful--which they don't. It's much more about state control and union control than it is about whether an ordinary person is intelligent enough to teach a child to read.

I have a master's degree; I'm better educated on paper than many teachers. More to the point (and far more importantly), I am a well-read and intelligent person who is more concerned with my children's education than anyone else is, and perfectly able to do any research I need to do. What good would we get out of spending years jumping through hoops and taking classes that don't apply to our situation? (Besides spending a lot of money and time--) If I want to know how to teach 4th grade science, I can figure it out myself with the resources available to me (for free).

[Donna]

Not only that, the money it would cost hundreds of thousands of homeschooling parents. Who would provide them with the teacher's certificates? Would they all be accepted into colleges and universities by virtue of being homeschool parents or would they have to apply and fight for spots in a program? Would they be able to teach their children while going to school for the certificate or would they be unable to homeschool while in the process of following the law?

If they have teacher's certificates and are homeschooling, would they then be able to deduct their homeschooling expenses from their tax returns, including the cost of education for their certificate?

[Colleen]

So let's say for the sake of argument that one general credential was offered for the purposes of homeschooling, 'k?

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't think that it should be allowed to stand as a requirement. I am fine with the state incentivizing this in some way--OK, maybe not fine, but I would not feel a need to fight it. But I would fight the other as a requirement. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. I'm willing to be vigilant.

Also, from a practical standpoint, I don't know how fast parents could get credentials. What would they do in the meantime? At a minimum, I would think that it would be unreasonable to expect this to happen instantly, so a new law would need to allow for some 'grandfathering'. But I would still fight against a new law.

I don't know whether I would do civil disobediance or not. But I feel a need to read up on it--starting with Thoreau, and also some of the newish books about the early, 'pretty illegal' days of homeschooling.

[mcconnellboys]

I would not comply. College professors are not required to hold teaching certificates (and when new fields of study open up, some of the leaders in that don't even hold degrees). I think the test for a teacher/mentor should be expertise, not whether or not one's major in college was in the education field. In fact, I believe that, in general, the education major is a much less rigorous degree program than many others that exist, so I would probably actually prefer a teacher who majored in English, history, some area of science, etc.

If those already doing this were allowed to demonstrate expertise through showing past yearly plans (or drawing up sets of plans if they don't keep things); demonstrate that their children were posting progress in various milestones through testing or other means, etc., so that they could be grandfathered into the system, then I would be happy to comply with such a request as that. But I don't feel I should be compelled to return to school and incur that expense just to study in an area which holds no interest whatsoever for me (and with whose principles I will probably completely disagree) in order to make some bureaucrats happy - because it won't change the way I do school one bit.......

Regena

[Miss Peregrine]

No, I don't need a certificate that says I can teach my children. I don't really "teach" them anyway. I just facilitate and I have been doing that since the day they were born.
So, no.

[sdWTMer]

Considering my religious beliefs said that I need to obey the laws of the land, then Yes I would feel like I would need to do it. However, I just don't see how they'd do it? Would they just give a test? If it's a test I could study for, sure. Hypothetically, would this mean that I would have to be observed like most public school educators? Would they have to come into my home and see if I'm doing things the way that they want me to?

[Julie in Austin]

I would guess that if this really were to become law, some enterprising college would make a certification program that was designed for homeschoolers: distance learning, minimal cost, minimal effort (despite multiple ages/subjects), etc. And--heaven help us--maybe including material that would actually be useful to homeschoolers--no classroom management, but ideas on how to keep toddlers busy!

Just a thought.

[True Blue]

But it isn't really about being certified. Its about discouraging homeschooling. If we jumped through the hoop of certification there would certainly be more hoops to come. It would be neverending.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

No, I wouldn't do it because it doesn't benefit me in any way (except that I would need to look over my shoulder a little less), but penalizes me time and money. It's would be a piece of paper that is essentially worthless and allows me to do what I've been doing successfully for 14 years. Testing? Sure. I've done portfolios and complained every minute, but I've done it. Out of principle I would dig my heels in at a teaching credential I don't want and don't need.

Barb

[PariSarah]

But I would probably fight very hard against that law, before and after it was enacted.

[sdWTMer]

Just like tollroads, do they ever really go away? Hee hee.

[percytruffle]

But, I have seen statistics that show evidence that the education level of the parent does not influence the success of the homeschooling endeavor. (I would have to dig for a link to the study and don't have time to right now.) So, assuming this study is repeatable, on what basis would the government require this certification? It would seem arbitrary unless it could be proven that the educational level/certification of the parent would correlate with improved homeschooling results.

[sdWTMer]

Here here.

[Audrey]

Well, hypothetically, it would be a non-issue for me because I am "qualified" insomuch as I have Ph.D. and in my Province that is undisputed as "qualified." I also don't have a beef against regulations requiring proof of a minimum level of adequacy for homeschooling parents to teach. IMO, the minimum adequacy would include a high school diploma, GED or equivalent.

I also don't have a problem with your modified proposition of a credential for homeschoolers specifically. What would one have to do to get this credential though? A standardized exam? I've no problem with that, however that exam should be no less and no more thorough and difficult than the exam given for public school teaching certification. If it were put in an equitable manner like that, I'd have no complaint.

But, again, this is hypothetical and quite far from likely. I think I smell some paranoia wafting around. (Just to clarify I'm not saying from you, Colleen).

[Kelli in TN]

Realistically it would bring about the end of my homeschool journey. We would not be willing to go "underground". We would be faced with the choice of using our very, very inferior public schools or incurring a ginormous amount of debt to enroll them in my favorite classical Christian school.

Either choice would be disasterous to us, either the loss of my children to a system that I have no confidence in, or being wiped out financially.

I oppose the requirement of teaching credentials for homeschool parents because it will destroy what is important to my family, and because I know lots of other parents just like me.

[TwinMominTX]

First, I can't see it being anything cost prohibitive for my family. I blow money on silly stuff all the time, what's another one! :o

Second, I can't imagine it would be difficult meeting the educational requirements as I have two masters degrees.

Third, I am a rule follower and it might be fun to have a few more letters after my name (assuming I were into that).

TK, BA, MA, MA, Cred.

[Colleen]

No, I don't need a certificate that says I can teach my children.

I understand. Are there other laws with which you do comply even though you feel you don't "need" them? Or, conversely, are there laws by which you don't abide based on that reasoning?

[Donna]

I would guess that if this really were to become law, some enterprising college would make a certification program that was designed for homeschoolers: distance learning, minimal cost, minimal effort (despite multiple ages/subjects), etc. And--heaven help us--maybe including material that would actually be useful to homeschoolers--no classroom management, but ideas on how to keep toddlers busy!

Just a thought.

which colleges are a part of, would make it easier or more cost effective for homeschoolers.

[Tracey in TX]

As this is a purely hypothetical conversation, I believe some religious organization in conjunction with tens of thousand homeschool parents would form a virtual university enabling teachers to become certified, or at least qualified to take a state certification.

I'm already certified, and to teach high school will require 1-2 additional tests. While I don't dispute the government desiring qualified individuals teaching tomorrow's leaders, it seems hypocritical to test parents who teach their children when the overall school system isn't working well. Why not encourage homeschooling? It frees up the schools to allow a lower student-teacher ratio; saves money for the state. Parents have the most to gain (or lose) with their children's education. A lot is at stake and most hs parents will do a much better job educating their child than The System.

Yes, I would follow the recommendations and further my credentials.

[Bess]

Why not encourage homeschooling? It frees up the schools to allow a lower student-teacher ratio; saves money for the state. Parents have the most to gain (or lose) with their children's education. A lot is at stake and most hs parents will do a much better job educating their child than The System.

Yes, I would follow the recommendations and further my credentials.

I would think the powers that be would not want to encourage homeschooling because most homeschoolers are not encouraging the type of "education" the state deems important... in fact, most homeschoolers teach the opposite. I could see how wanting to take control away from the parents would be attractive to those who lean towards socialism.

[Plaid Dad]

Like some of the other posters, I am "overqualified" in terms of my existing degrees and am confident that I could pass any sort of competence exam the government might throw at me.

I would feel duty-bound (on religious grounds) to comply with a law that had been put in place by a legitimate government body and that had been found constitutional as long as it did not require me to commit what my faith defines as sin.

BUT I would fight against any such legislation before it ever got to that point, using whatever (legal) means were available.

[dangermom]

About whether I would follow such a law, I'd have to think about it! I'm an ornery sort, so my first instinct is to go underground. OTOH, my religion has a lot to say about following laws, so I'd probably have to squash my natural woman and go jump through a few hoops. :p Or my brother was recently tossing around the idea of trying to open up a classical charter school around here...maybe I'd do that!

[Chris in VA]

If it were as easy to get as it is to get a VA teaching certificate, then yes, I probably would.
I already have an ed degree.
All that's needed to become a certified teacher in Va is a few pretty simple tests. People can take a 30 hour test prep class, take the tests and they're in, at least for a provisional license.

I'm torn though, because I don't believe everyone who teaches homeschool is putting in the time required to do an adequate job--but I don't necessarily think getting a teaching cert. would help. On the other hand, I think a lot of non-homeschoolers don't realize that the curriculum choices nowadays make it relatively easy to school kids, even at the advanced levels. Look at Omnibus, for example--there is so much help available in those books that you don't even have to read the actual Great Books in order to teach them to your kiddos. Maybe you'd do a better job if you did read them, but you can do a pretty darned good job if you just follow the curriculum.

Anyway, I don't want any hassles with the gov't. I just hope it never comes to needing a credential.

[Daisy]

This is a really hard question. I'm almost at the point where I believe that the only reason a state would require this is so that they could feed you their worldview for 4-5 years. And it would never stop with teacher certification. The state would demand that you jumped through all their hoops. Would they begin to dictate what curriculum you use, what subjects you teach? Where does it stop? When do we stand up and say, "This is wrong and I will not comply to a law that takes away my freedoms as an American" When do we stand up and say, "Enough!"

Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding. ~ Louis D. Brandeis

[Scarlett]

I would obey the law of the land. I do not have a college degree of any kind so it would be daunting to get myself educated enough to obey such a law.

How about you Colleen? Would you obey the law or go underground?


The only laws I do not obey are those that are in direct conflict with God's law.

[Janet in WA]

I wouldn't homeschool illegally. And I doubt that I'd go so far as to get a teaching credential in order to homeschool, unless there were some special "shortcut" credential available for homeschooling. It's not that I'd have a "beef" against it, it's just that it would be difficult to impossible for me to go back to college and earn a teaching credential in time for it to be of any use in homeschooling my children.

[mcconnellboys]

Well, colleges tend to be more liberal in thought, in general, I think, than lower level educational institutions. They are currently throwing up more and more free, online courseware so that college level work is more readily available to all. And that directly cuts into their bottom line, so you'd think they wouldn't do that if they were really into self-preservation...... So yeah, I can see some enterprising college perhaps doing that. And that I could go for!

Regena

[Daisy]

Hey, I got my first negative rep. I feel so special. :p Wanna give me another. :rolleyes:

[Remudamom]

Hmm, we both have teaching degrees, they don't help us even one tiny bit or make us more/less qualified to teach and I would tell the powers that be what they could do with their requirements.

[Miss Peregrine]

I understand. Are there other laws with which you do comply even though you feel you don't "need" them? Or, conversely, are there laws by which you don't abide based on that reasoning?

Honestly, I can only think of one law that says I must do "x" if I want to do "Y" Using getting a driver's license as an example, in order to do "x"(drive a car legally) I must do "y"(pass the exam)

In that case, I wanted to drive so I complied. So I can change my statement to 'I don't want a teaching credential in order to teach my children.'

I never stated whether I would go underground or not. I don't know what I would do at this point. But no, I would not get the certificate.

[sdWTMer]

I did too, hee hee. I was called a sheep with the comment of "Baa Baa"

[pixelroper]

I didn't notice anyone chiming in from WA State:

in order to comply in this state you must have one of these three things: a) a state certified teacher as your program monitor/mentor, b) take a six week teacher certification course on teaching, c) hold a higher ed degree.

Any of these three qualify you. Most in my homeschool community meet this requirement. Our school district to my knowledge has never asked any one for proof.

The states differ so much in so many ways, what their teaching certification requirements are, how long the certification lasts, the hoops to jump through to keep the certification, different certifications for different grade levels- my goodness...

My brother taught Math at a private high school for awhile, he was not qualified for ps not sure why- he did take a few ed classes.

[Jennifer in MI]

I would not homeschool illegally. But, I would probably go through whatever hoops necessary to be able to legally teach my kids at home. I mean, even if they do come out with some sort of legislation like this, there'll have to be a grace period where current homeschooling parents can get certified, I'd imagine. I'd do it.

If the demands on my time to get these credentials were just too high, or the cost prohibitive, I think dh and I would have to reconsider our commitment to homeschooling. I'd rather be a really involved mom of a ps student than a stressed out one who doesn't have time to be involved in her kids' lives!

But, like most of you, I'll be fighting any legislation on this to the end!

[Mrs Mungo]

What would said teaching certificate require? If it was as simple as a GED-style test? If I could finish up my BA in English then be certified as a provisional teacher? Sure, I would do that. Would I go through a full-blown educational degree? No. Would I homeschool illegally? No, my husband is too high profile in the various military communities in which we live, it would be too much of a risk.

[Doran]

But I would probably fight very hard against that law, before and after it was enacted.

But, I'm toying mentally with how far I'd take my fight against such a law. I'm wondering if I, like the trail blazers before us, would feel my suffragette heritage bubble up inside me to the point that I'd actually be willing to be taken to court or have my children 'forcibly' put into school while my name got splashed all over the newspapers. I'm not imagining this from a fame and glory standpoint -- just from the perspective of how far I'd go to stake my claim to something I feel is rightfully mine.

Doran

[Jennifer in MI]

Just curious - What are the requirements of a private school teacher? I thought they didn't have to be certified teachers. Do they even have to have degrees in the subjects they teach?

Oh - and Colleen - what would you do?

[WendyK]

Many private schools do not hire only (or even any) certified teachers. I would not comply. I don't even see how I could reasonably do so. One of the requirements I could not satisfy is to spend a year teaching in a school. It isn't as simple as having a degree and taking some tests. I could not afford to work for free for a year and pay for daycare. And then to keep the certification up, one has to continue to take classes. I just couldn't afford that either. I would love to take college classes to enrich my life now, but at the cost of hundreds and even thousands of dollars per course it just isn't doable. I am paying $300 a month for the next 30 years or so to pay off my current student loan debt. That is a stretch since we are living on one moderate income.

It is a horrible thought.

[chiguirre]

If it was easy to do--no more than a year's commitment a couple nights a week and we could hs in the meantime I'd get the certificate. If it was more than that or I would have to enroll ds in the meantime-no. We would probably leave the country. It's not that I'm a die-hard no government involvement in education type, it's that I've seen ps in action with ds and I wouldn't want to see him regress that much. We've put in a lot of hours keeping him on par academically and working to improve his social skills to lose all that when he's stuck in a contained classroom with mainly non-verbal kids (and yes, that's what our fine ps offered :mad:)

[Kate CA]

Tossing this out there for the sake of discussion. Let's say, hypothetically, homeschooling parents were required by law to gain teaching credentials. (This is purely hypothetically. I don't foresee this happening, regardless of the current drama in CA.) Would you abide by such a law? Those of you who would "go underground", so to speak, what's your beef against such a requirement? (I am not looking for red herring arguments e.g. lamenting the fact that some credentialed teachers do a poor job, etc.) Those of you who would follow such requirements, please share your three pennies, too.

Well, what it takes to obtain a teaching credential in CA is this:

"A certified teacher needs a four-year college degree PLUS a graduate study program for a teaching credential. It's about 30 units for the preliminary credential and another 12-15 units to "clear" the credential. A lot of time and money. Not to mention to student teaching for no pay. There are also a few state examinations involved." (This is quoted to me from a friend who has one.)

I don't believe that parents who wish to homeschool their own children should be required to obtain one. I think the whole idea begs the question of whether such a credential equips a teacher to teach any better than one without.

You know me too well to think I would ever support such legislation. :)

[pixelroper]

object to the three options in WA?

I have no idea what the WA 6 week certification for homeschooling is like. It is short. do not know the cost either.

I belive private schools can hire anyone they deem fit. Which makes more sense, IMO.

[Lorna in the boonies]

Well, I'm certified for all subjects K-12, provided my students are in special education. My area of concentration is Learning Disabilities, but my certificate says something along the lines of "Special Education -- General" (I haven't looked at it in several years, so I may not have the wording exactly right). I'm also certified K-8 in regular education, so high school would be my only real concern.

I suppose I'd just figure out some way to qualify my kids as special ed, and then I'd be home free? Maybe? (My oldest two kids were both in the gifted program before we pulled them out to homeschool, and that is considered special education.)

I don't know if it would fly or not, but that would certainly be my first course of action!

[True Blue]

WA homeschoolers only need 45 college credits or to take a homeschool cert. course. Its not 6 weeks. In fact, it varies depending on the institution or person giving it. I just looked up one course that was 2 days long.

[SheilaZ]

Only if my state required public school teachers to actually have teaching degrees.

I taught in my state with a provisional degree. I have a BS in biology and I was certified in another state. However, I never completed the work for my state's certification.
But I taught other people's children.

I can understand needing credentials to work with other people's children....but to require credentials for me to work with my own children....no way.

[pixelroper]

WA homeschoolers only need 45 college credits or to take a homeschool cert. course. Its not 6 weeks. In fact, it varies depending on the institution or person giving it. I just looked up one course that was 2 days long.

I thought what was offered here was the same state wide, must be so many hours. has anyone ever taken it?

[True Blue]

Not I. But I've heard from people that have taken it that it helped them immensely with homeschooling. The instructors are usually former homeschoolers.

[Tami]

Since my understanding of Scripture involves providing a specifically Christian education for my child, I would either get my teaching certificate, enroll my child in a Christian school. If both of those options were out of reach financially, I would have to make the painful choice of either violating my religious convictions or violating the law of the land. I would hope that I would choose to obey God rather than man, in that case.

[Carol in Cal.]

To me, though, still, the point is not whether I would get certified. The point is whether I would fight not to NEED to get certified.

I don't know whether I would or would not get certified.

But I know that I should not have to.

I know that parents should have the right to raise and educate their children as they see fit (with appropriate caveats around very basic health and safety.) This must be the priority that governs parenting law. It's not education law that is at issue in California. It is parenting law. And for that I will fight, regardless of whether or not I would ultimately comply.

[True Blue]

I agree. In WA its a homeschool class that might be needed. Really easy and I don't think its too much to ask because the point isn't to discourage homeschooling. I think getting certified as a teacher is something totally different and really its to discourage us from homeschooling.

[Karin]

Well, this is a tough one. My kids and I are dual citizens, so if this became required in only one of the countries, we might seriously consider moving, although it could be tough for dh as he's not a dual citizen and that would make it harder. I have no idea if Immigration Canada is anything like the INS, but if it is, it would not be a picnic.

It would be a battle between my natural tendency to rebel from such strong coersion and my biblical beliefs which say to obey all laws that do not directly contradict the Bible and by that I would say what we're directed to do in the NT, not the Mosaic law. It would also depend on just what would need to be done in order to get this certification. Sell my soul? No. Take another 4 year degree program? Not bl**dy likely. (That's my angry BC-ism coming out here). Study for a basic written test? Probably if the cost isn't prohibitive.

But before that happened I'd be doing whatever I could to prevent such legislation from being passed.

[LizzyBee]

Hey, I got my first negative rep. I feel so special. :p Wanna give me another. :rolleyes:

Well, if it's any comfort, I gave you positive rep earlier this evening. :)

[Shannon]

This is a really hard question. I'm almost at the point where I believe that the only reason a state would require this is so that they could feed you their worldview for 4-5 years. And it would never stop with teacher certification. The state would demand that you jumped through all their hoops. Would they begin to dictate what curriculum you use, what subjects you teach? Where does it stop? When do we stand up and say, "This is wrong and I will not comply to a law that takes away my freedoms as an American" When do we stand up and say, "Enough!"

This is a hard question. What I keep thinking is why are parents considered competent to educate their children until they are 5 or 6 years old, but then they suddenly are not capable of doing so.

Since this is hypothetical, rather than going underground, I'd move! :D

Shannon

[Audrey]

I have no idea if Immigration Canada is anything like the INS, ...

Oh gosh no! They're nothing alike. It's actually quite a straight-forward process if you are already married to a Canadian. Don't worry. Your "Plan B" will work. :)

[pixelroper]

This is a hard question. What I keep thinking is why are parents considered competent to educate their children until they are 5 or 6 years old, but then they suddenly are not capable of doing so.


is in the careful study of the social/political/philosophical history of our educational system and how it ended up in the shambles it is in today...

[nukeswife]

I wouldn't homeschool illegally. And I doubt that I'd go so far as to get a teaching credential in order to homeschool, unless there were some special "shortcut" credential available for homeschooling. It's not that I'd have a "beef" against it, it's just that it would be difficult to impossible for me to go back to college and earn a teaching credential in time for it to be of any use in homeschooling my children.


I'm in the same boat. I don't have an Associates or Bachelors degree. I have a few certificates in misc. health fields but nothing that would allow me to get a teaching certificate in an amount of time that would allow me to make it useful for my oldest 2 kids.

[Patty Joanna]

...which brings me to my objection to teacher certification PERIOD, for schools or otherwise. *What exactly is being "certified"?* The NEA and all the state EA have consistently and adamantly opposed teacher testing even as they have insisted on certification. Doctors, nurses, CPAs, lawyers, engineers, veterinarian--all have certification, and all obtain certification by passing a test of subject knowledge. This is what gives meaning to the certification. This does not mean that every doctor is an excellent doctor, or that a nurse will never make a mistake. But it does mean that they have passed a test displaying mastery of the subject matter at hand. The "credential" gains its meaning from the substance represented by it. What is the substance behind a teaching credential? Essentially, the payment of a certain amount of money to a certain college which has created its own agenda for "teacher certification" (which may have nothing to do with the nearby college's coursework).

So my problem is that I don't think the case can be made that it means anything.

If it happened, I guess I would say the same as Plaid (may I call you by your first name?) But my dh might say UNDERGROUND WE GO!

[Karin]

This is a hard question. What I keep thinking is why are parents considered competent to educate their children until they are 5 or 6 years old, but then they suddenly are not capable of doing so.

Since this is hypothetical, rather than going underground, I'd move! :D

Shannon

I can't remember whose site it's on, but at least one of the presidential candidates has something on their website about preschool education. Of course, that may not mean mandatory education;), but nevertheless, it made me wonder about their entire educational agenda. But since I don't care for any of the three top contenders (unless anyone stepped down today and I don't know about it) I'm just plain irritated because I'll vote on principle, but won't like it one bit. Will I vote my conscience (that might be too late by then, but I'll have to check into every party again) or for what I deem to be the least of the evils? Let it not be said that I am impressed by most politicians, in either country (oh, please don't let my mother know I wrote that!)

[sdWTMer]

Patty, it's no wonder why I respect and admire you so much. Thanks.

[angela in ohio]

Well, with my college work, I qualify to be a sub, and dh has a teaching degree still. So I would be a long-term sub. ;)

[angela in ohio]

What is the substance behind a teaching credential? Essentially, the payment of a certain amount of money to a certain college which has created its own agenda for "teacher certification" (which may have nothing to do with the nearby college's coursework).

I'm sure it differs by state, but dh had to take several state tests to get his teaching degree. A few were general and then there were some for his specialties. When he switched states, he had to take them all over again to be certified in the new state.

[percytruffle]

Actually, there is a national teacher exam. You must take it to gain certification in NY state. The year I became certified was the last year without the exam requirement. But, as you intimated, an exam is no guarantee of an ability to teach, only that you posess the appropriate knowledge. Even though I oppose many of the NEA stances on issues, I do agree that an exam is not the best method of determining worthiness for certification.

[Patty Joanna]

It probably varies by state, but in WA, no requirements for certification for private school teachers. My son was in a private school and his teachers were all fabulous, as are all his co-op teachers. I can't speak highly enough of the teachers we have this year. All uncertified, but I would have loved to have any of them for a teacher in my day.

[sdWTMer]

In this case, I truly believe it is these individuals that do it as a labor of love.

[Patty Joanna]

See, I am probably out of date to a large degree. But I still would ask WHAT is being certified? I think it is impossible to create a test that measures worthiness for certification which is the root of my problem with it. It is like having an "artist" certification at some point. My concern is that because there isn't a standard of practice that can be developed, certification can become a sort of litmus test on positions and PCness and that is not good.

My beef is still in the content area. I have a cousin-in-law who teaches high school English in Massachusetts. I asked her if she thought there should be teacher testing. She was horrified...and she flat out told me that she herself could not pass any test in her subject matter. I ask you, where does one take the conversation from here? I lost respect in a big way for her. But she went on and on about how this was the general sentiment in her school.

By the way, I taught high school English/history for 5 years and college writing and journalism for 2, but it was a long time ago. I have been certified (and am certifiable! but not as a teacher at this point) so I'm not just poking my stick in a hive I haven't occupied. My year was the last year that one was certified in a *subject* area at the secondary level; after my year, one was certified in *education*--an ART. How does one test for competence in that?

My MBA was MUCH more useful to me as teacher training because I had to do things that were HARD for me and I had to learn how to really learn something.

I wonder how many states require the National Teacher Exam, and I wonder what it consists of.

Thanks for the information. It is interesting and I wonder how out of date I am...and my best guess is that while I might be out of date on these developments, there still has not been a lot of actual change in substance.

[Patty Joanna]

This is interesting and a development since I was involved (I posted nearby on a related issue, so will let that one stand and not repeat myself). What is the subject area your husband is in? I think it is a lot easier to certify in math than in English, for example, and so that might be an area where some progress is made.

It would be interesting to know the content of some of these tests...I had to take some "tests" too to be certified, but they were so banal that they are hardly worthy of the name or comparison with a bar or boards exam, for example. But that might have changed, at least in some areas.

[percytruffle]

The tests are subject area tests as well as general competency tests.

You said:
"My year was the last year that one was certified in a *subject* area at the secondary level; after my year, one was certified in *education*--an ART. How does one test for competence in that?"

The teaching of art is not necessarily subjective, but encompasses skill areas such as: the elements of art, the principles of design, art history, knowledge of materials and media within each area of art. Why would testing for certification be difficult? Art students are routinely evaluated as part of their Master's comprehensive. Also, the national testing, includes basic skills such as writing. Now that is a good thing. I have seen young teachers present themselves, through their written correspondence, to parents in such a way that was less than professional.

[sdWTMer]

While, I can't speak for Patty, I don't think that Patty was necessarily talking about an art class, but rather being certified as in a Bachelor of Arts Degree in Education. I could be wrong here and correct me if I am.

[percytruffle]

I was addressing what I saw as a legitimate concern that was brought up about testing within the field of art. I can certainly see how someone outside that particular field may not have an understanding of the objectivity which can exist within the field of art.

Patty wrote to another poster in this thread:
"What is the subject area your husband is in? I think it is a lot easier to certify in math than in English, for example, and so that might be an area where some progress is made."

I was merely trying to share some inside information with her about the types of things an art teacher could be tested on since art was not her field of study.:)

[sdWTMer]

Alrighty then. :-)

[Jan P.]

I hate these kinds of questions. I would hope that I would have the stamina to fight the decision. As the others have said a teaching certificate doesn't mean much. I had a professor in college that taught all freshmen via television. Boring! I could have easily passed the class by just reading the book and taking the tests. Millions of public school kids are taught by substitute teachers who do not have teaching credentials. Are these students hauled out of their school rooms and stuck into another school room with a certified teacher. Of course not! The whole thing is absurd. Even if we got certified then we are going back to having to cowtow to someone else's agenda (the certification testers). It's bad enough that we as homeschoolers have to teach to the test (SAT/ACT) in high school, but then to have to bow down to the state almost makes me what to take the first boat to an uncharted island!

[sdWTMer]

LOL. Thanks Jan. I agree. :-)

[Stacy in NJ]

part. Just to satisfy some irrational, arbitary state requirement? It would be legitimizing a higher eduational system that is functionally incompetent. No way.

[nancypants]

I would just move. Thankfully I live in a very pro-homeschooling province. :)

[sdWTMer]

Well, Nancypants, we might all want to come join you! ;-)

[CLHCO]

...which brings me to my objection to teacher certification PERIOD, for schools or otherwise. *What exactly is being "certified"?* The NEA and all the state EA have consistently and adamantly opposed teacher testing even as they have insisted on certification. Doctors, nurses, CPAs, lawyers, engineers, veterinarian--all have certification, and all obtain certification by passing a test of subject knowledge. This is what gives meaning to the certification. This does not mean that every doctor is an excellent doctor, or that a nurse will never make a mistake. But it does mean that they have passed a test displaying mastery of the subject matter at hand. The "credential" gains its meaning from the substance represented by it. What is the substance behind a teaching credential? Essentially, the payment of a certain amount of money to a certain college which has created its own agenda for "teacher certification" (which may have nothing to do with the nearby college's coursework).

So my problem is that I don't think the case can be made that it means anything.

I apologize in advance. This is just beyond me to not give a bit of a rant over. I have trouble with the whole "certification" process myself. It varies a great deal from state to state and even school to school but I know that the education classes I took were just plain stupid. Honestly. Stupid, lame, foolish, etc. I can't remember learning ONE thing in a class called "Reading Comprehension". I do know I did not learn the difference between teaching phonics and whole language until I started homeschooling - in a whole semester about reading. They don't usually teach you that since a teacher wouldn't have a say in the curriculum anyway and they don't want any rogue teachers on their hands with too much information and ideas. Not one critique of the current methods or issues facing the schools was brought up either.

I never learned about styles of education and philosophies. I didn't really see it until I started homeschooling and learning about education myself, but now it seems like they were just trying to come up with things to do with us without actually letting us think ourselves or do anything except accept the establishment. The teacher colleges usually bow down to the establishment rather than have open discussions of the needs in education.

To summarize: I do think one can have what would be a generalized expertise in "education" that one can "certify" if you like, such as a lawyer proved to know the law, a doctor to have a set amount of knowledge in medicine, etc. However, when they say "certify" it doesn't mean that. A general knowledge on education would include methods of education, such as classical models, accelerated, Charlotte Mason, Montessori, or new ones like Core Knowledge. It would mean you know the history of the modern movement, why it was started and when, methods of teaching reading and the effectiveness, the meaning of a linear approach to math and whether it is best to use algorithms or simply learn to problem solve intuitively, like new, new math, etc. Appropriate overview of classroom management methods or learning disabilities would also be helpful in areas where multiple children are involved. That's not what places like the NEA mean when they want certification, and there view is what the colleges teach.

I'm sorry, I got way off track on the original post. I would complete my certification and growl the whole way through. If it was too much of a hardship or impossible, I'd go underground at that point.

[Quiver0f10]

I don't know what I would do. I only have a HS diploma and so to go to college to get my teaching dregree would take a long time. I would do it if necessary I guess, but I don't know if I would go underground or not. It would sure be tempting LOL.

[Elaine]

Well, what it takes to obtain a teaching credential in CA is this:

"A certified teacher needs a four-year college degree PLUS a graduate study program for a teaching credential. It's about 30 units for the preliminary credential and another 12-15 units to "clear" the credential. A lot of time and money. Not to mention to student teaching for no pay. There are also a few state examinations involved." (This is quoted to me from a friend who has one.)

I don't believe that parents who wish to homeschool their own children should be required to obtain one. I think the whole idea begs the question of whether such a credential equips a teacher to teach any better than one without.

You know me too well to think I would ever support such legislation. :)

What she said! ;)

[elegantlion]

I would have a problem complying with any certification process. As a christian, my ideal to follow the law of the land, agree or disagree. However, I am a high school graduate and I haven't been in a classroom for over 20 years. I see so much potential to discriminate in the situation, that I certainly wouldn't be the first in line to go through the process.

Honestly, at this point my family and I would probably move out of the states and educate our son abroad.

[angela in ohio]

This is interesting and a development since I was involved (I posted nearby on a related issue, so will let that one stand and not repeat myself). What is the subject area your husband is in? I think it is a lot easier to certify in math than in English, for example, and so that might be an area where some progress is made.

It would be interesting to know the content of some of these tests...I had to take some "tests" too to be certified, but they were so banal that they are hardly worthy of the name or comparison with a bar or boards exam, for example. But that might have changed, at least in some areas.

They were tests in math, English, etc. Also tests in teaching theory, problem solving, etc. His specialties are in special education (I don't remember which two areas specifically.) I don't know what was on those tests, but I know they were more difficult than the general ones. I know dh learned a lot more in his teacher education classes than most people say they did, but he is very motivated and not the norm.

His graduate classes were a mix of (1.) really, really helpful classes that taught him very effective ways to teach and (2.) political-reprogramming classes designed to change his personal beliefs to those of the NEA. Maybe more actual teaching classes would have been more helpful. ;)

Most people I know say they didn't learn anything helpful to teaching in college, other than in their student teaching. I know what I learned in college in general helps me homeschool every day, but that was just my gen ed classes mostly, as I don't have a teaching degree. I would prefer my dds, if they would like to teach, to get a good liberal arts degree and teach in private schools.

Anyway, the teacher exams are, of course, not equivalent to a bar or board exam, but then teachers aren't paid what lawyers, doctors, and nurses are paid. ;)

There are still teachers who are inadequate, even with certification. And doctors and nurses who are inadequate, even with certification. And there would still be homeschoolers who are inadequate, even with certification, but that is the first thing anyone can think of to fix a problem. "Let's stamp something offical on them all." LOL :rolleyes:

[angela in ohio]

Oops, some of the middle of this is actually replying to Cheryl's post, too.

[Pencil Pusher]

This is an interesting question. I have a BA in English & an MA in Education. I'm certified for secondary English, & to be certified for elem, I'd just have to take another test.

But that's not really the point, is it? I admit, I've taken some comfort in the past in the thought that *if* anything were ever to happen, we'd probably be ok because of my ed., but reading this thread has changed my mind.

The point is that *everyone* should have that right. What if I'd been smart enough to get a job & save $ before getting married & having dc INSTEAD of racking up tons of debt on my degrees? Would I be less qualified to teach them? For me personally, yeah, I'd be a little less qualified. I learned a lot in my undergrad degree, & I was raised w a pretty narrow world view. I'm glad I had it challenged a little & that someone forced me to read Plato & Faulkner.

In general, though, the WTM was the style of hs'ing I imagined both before & after my BA. Hs'ing was important to me before & after. So I've got my degree--what about my friends & neighbors? What about my dc? I hope that my reaction to such a law (requiring a teaching cert for hs'ers) would reach beyond my own situation.

And, yeah, I'm pretty stubborn, & likely to dig my heels in against something that I'm already qualified for. Otoh, I don't see going to jail, being fined, etc. I'm not going to risk *my* hs'ing...yet...not defending the next guy's rights to do so IS risking my own. Kwim?

So maybe, worst case scenario, I'd help open up the place that would print degrees for hs'ers. LOL. But if Quiver's not qualified, none of us is.

[mcconnellboys]

Ummmm, these two posts are right under mine and that might just be the quirks of posting to this new board, but just to clarify, I have never given anyone negative rep and never will. I will discuss differences of opinion in open messages. I might consider discussing something more personal in a pm, but never by way of negative rep. And I've only given positive rep anonymously a time or two, just because I forgot and hit the space bar before entering my name......

The entire point of coming here is for discussion. If someone doesn't want to hear a point of view any different than their own, they should stay away.

I don't even disagree with those who say they would comply with a ruling that we might have to be certified. Heck, if it came right down to it, I would do it, too, if it was the only way to continue. But I would probably be a test case for my state, first...... It's certainly something I'd be willing to go to court over..... I wouldn't let my children's education be disrupted by it, either, so I'd do what I had to do in that regard.

Regena

[Pencil Pusher]

Ummmm, these two posts are right under mine and that might just be the quirks of posting to this new board, but just to clarify, I have never given anyone negative rep and never will. I will discuss differences of opinion in open messages. I might consider discussing something more personal in a pm, but never by way of negative rep. And I've only given positive rep anonymously a time or two, just because I forgot and hit the space bar before entering my name......

The entire point of coming here is for discussion. If someone doesn't want to hear a point of view any different than their own, they should stay away.

I don't even disagree with those who say they would comply with a ruling that we might have to be certified. Heck, if it came right down to it, I would do it, too, if it was the only way to continue. But I would probably be a test case for my state, first...... It's certainly something I'd be willing to go to court over..... I wouldn't let my children's education be disrupted by it, either, so I'd do what I had to do in that regard.

Regena

Nah, I think it's just trolls.

[DIY-DY]

Are there other laws with which you do comply even though you feel you don't "need" them? Or, conversely, are there laws by which you don't abide based on that reasoning?

The point of going "underground" is to be beneath the radar, so to speak. By its very nature, this is a choice which puts those who make it in a position of potential danger. They are Breaking The Law, be it by conscience or by conviction or by whatever reasoning. The authorities aren't particularly concerned with the reasons, are they?

To admit to such in a public forum, and particularly in a place where there are those who are well-known to be big fans of the State, with all it's "good government", specifically of governmental oversight for those of us who are simply too stupid to govern ourselves (ie. those of us who disagree on a number of basic principles), wouldn't be wise, would it?

It's not quite the same as discussing convictions and philosophies in a safe environment, where privacy is a given and one wouldn't have to worry about one's words (in print, no less) being later brought against them in a most disturbing manner.

Civil disobedience isn't new. It's also not particularly something one simply comes right out and says, "Look, Ma! I'm doing it! Right now! Look at me!" Not, at least in my mind, when there is a very good possibility that someone of an opposing mindset may find themselves inclined to make a phone call and stir up trouble for the fun of it (or for conviction's sake - I do believe some of the most terrifying oppressors in the history of man were so dangerous because they truly believed in what they were doing and that it was "for the good of ______", and not for maliciousness' sake.) I am NOT, most definitely NOT, insinuating that you would do so, Colleen. But we've seen trolls here already. We've seen the virtiol that can be spewed against anybody who disagrees with anybody else. This isn't a private forum, free from prying eyes or unsavory characters. It can get ugly, and in this context, it seems to me that answering this question straight out is much like putting the can of worms in the hornet's nest and beating the whole contraption with a stick.

Just the thoughts that coursed through my mind as I read this thread. I would imagine there are those who would agree with what I'm saying, as well as those who wouldn't. But if I were engaged in some form of civil disobedience, this isn't the place I'd opt to pop on out of the closet about it. ;)

[Peek a Boo]

excellent points made already :-)

My thoughts--
In general and on principle I would be as involved fighting this legislation as I could no matter how "simple" it is. If the "teacher certification" needed to homeschool was a simple test like a driver's license thing [and crunchy --I was thinking about that too as I was reading --glad you addressed it], IF it was not expensive, was NOT necessary to take every year [once you got it, you got it for life], and i wasn't required to study for X number of hours, then i would submit to the law so I could get on w/ educating my kids. I like the suggestions so far of expecting some organization to fulfill this type of testing with a huge time/cost efficient system for single income families.

washington state: I'm not sure what the homeschooling test is like, but I would be willing to hear more about it.


If the "teacher certification" was anything more, then its obvious purpose would be more of control than concern. As has been stated by those who know way more than I about teacher certification, the certification process itself doesn't do much to actually help w/ homeschooling one's own children. Or even a small groups of kids.
State control of my children's education [for control's sake only] is not something I can allow scripturally or morally. i would be more likely to move. Or homeschool underground. I know my dh would be on board w/ me on this. And I don't have a problem answering that publicly cuz if it really came down to it, I believe we could go underground pretty quick, lol. :cool:

[Kelli in TN]

You know, the thought of experienced homeschoolers coming up with a course for new homeschoolers to take for some sort of "creditential" is really not that bad of an idea.

Even though the thought of a creditential hits me the wrong way, the idea of encouraging some sort of mentoring is not bad at all. I see new homeschoolers who don't know how to plug into resources and they could be helped by something like this. I also see homeschoolers who are somewhat lazy and are doing the bare minimum and I think they might be able to be helped somewhat by a mentor. At least it would do no harm.

I have had disagreements for years with various homeschoolers when I have suggested that if we did a better job, within the homeschool community, of watching out for each other and holding each other accountable, perhaps we would not be looked at with so much suspicion.

I actually have some incredibly radical ideas about homeschool oversight. Because I cherish my homeschool friends, I keep these ideas to myself. They are ideas that might be terribly offensive to folks who believe in absolute liberty in this area.

[Oak Knoll Mom]

My (currently expired) teaching certificate is for Special Education K-12. I guess I could get recertified fairly easily and then find someone to diagnose each of my kids with some kind of disability. (Hypothetically speaking.) ;)

[Daisy]

I'm curious what a High School Diploma is?? LOL. Has the meaning of a High School diploma become so empty that one assumes a person who has one would need additional education in order to teach their own children? You know it used to be that an 8th grade education meant something. Why add another test for homeschoolers to take in order to "prove" they can educate their children? Why not just make a high school diploma actually worth the paper it is written on? CA started requiring a High School exit exam and sadly many cannot pass it and many more pass by using various loopholes. I guess it stands to reason that CA feels the need to force a college education on potential homeschoolers. Their own homegrown teachers may be lacking in their basic education without a college degree. However once again, CA is making assumptions based on it's own inability to educate children.

[RoughCollie]

I'd have a huge beef with that kind of law. IMO, the proof is in the pudding. If a child can learn and does learn what s/he needs to know, that is enough. I think that a required method of proving that protects the child's right to receive an adequate education.

The intersection of parents' rights and children's rights is a sticky wicket. For example, in the Amish community, parents have the right to educate their children only through the 8th grade. But what happens to the Amish child who wants to go to high school? There must be a few of those. Does their parents' right to govern their education trump their right to receive one? Why should this be? [I don't want to derail the discussion to one about the Amish -- this is only an example.]

Your hypothetical doesn't give enough information for me to determine whether I would continue to homeschool even if I didn't meet the requirements of the law. Would the law require a 4-year college degree before the teaching credentials could be acquired? Would a standardized test be required, either in lieu of or in addition to, the degree? Would the parent have to be certified to teach in public schools in his or her home state? Would current homeschoolers be "grandfathered" in? What provision would be made for current homeschoolers -- would they be permitted to work towards certification while still teaching their children? What provisions, if any, would be made to tailor the requirements to homeschoolers, as opposed to public school teachers? Who would pay the financial burden of meeting the requirements?

On the other hand, maybe an expanded hypothetical is not necessary. Maybe the question is whether or not parents have the right to educate their children without government intervention. If so, what protects the children's rights to an education, and who determines what the quality and quantity of that education should be? If the government has determined that, via the public school system, then they have done a very poor job. I merely have to point to the difference between the quality and quantity of education received in the richest communities and the poorest, and then to the differences in quality of education received by children when comparing one state to another.

Another factor is that homeschoolers, by and large, are a group of people who are determined to give their children a good education, who know they can do a better job of it than the public schools do, and who have the resources to enable this to be done. Make no mistake about it, to be a homeschooler is to have a career.

IMO, nearly every adult who would tackle homeschooling is competent to teach their children everything necessary in grades 1-8. There are plenty of materials and other resources to aid those who need them. The small percentage of parents who are not competent to homeschool but do it anyway -- well, my question is whether or not they can truly be called homeschoolers. Merely taking one's children out of a public school does not make one a homeschooler.

Teaching high school is more difficult -- but there are lots of resources, including outsourcing, books, curricula, and other homeschoolers, that can help the parent who is determined to do a good job at this.

My mantra is that is not what a person knows that is important. It is vastly more important that a person knows how to find and use the information they need, and knows how to differentiate the wheat from the chaff in that information.

If I consider the hypothetical as it stands, I think I would engage in civil disobedience if the requirements of the law were unduly burdensome to me, and if I thought it were both necessary and reasonable to do so. I would also be supportive of others who did so. I would help with the ensuing court cases, too, if I could.

Edited to add, thanks to Kelli's post, that I do not have much contact with other homeschoolers in real life, so I have not met anyone (that I know of) who needed to be mentored or who could be termed a "lazy" homeschooler.


Let's say, hypothetically, homeschooling parents were required by law to gain teaching credentials. (This is purely hypothetically. Would you abide by such a law? Those of you who would "go underground", so to speak, what's your beef against such a requirement? Those of you who would follow such requirements, please share your three pennies, too.

[CLHCO]

Well, hypothetically, it would be a non-issue for me because I am "qualified" insomuch as I have Ph.D. and in my Province that is undisputed as "qualified."

You should be more than qualified. But in the public schools, expertise in a field is not qualification to teach. To be certified you must have specific classes for a specific number of credits on things like classroom management, certain psychology courses, etc. Then you must student teach under someone who many be less competent in the field but does have their stamp of approval.

There are those top in their fields in the universities who are technically not "qualified" in many states to teach in the public schools. Here in Colorado, to homeschool without supervision of any type you must hold a Colorado Teaching Certification. You only get this through attending teacher classes through the colleges and student teaching. An experienced and qualified homeschooler would have to sit in with the undergraduates and make a diorama of their ideal classroom, learn about how they are observed by their superiors when they're teaching, and find out about the teacher's unions in the state. All things I remember from class. :rolleyes:

[Mama Lynx]

I understand. Are there other laws with which you do comply even though you feel you don't "need" them? Or, conversely, are there laws by which you don't abide based on that reasoning?

It sounds like you're really more interested in how people think about and respond to laws, than about homeschooling credentials. Has all the discussion about teacher certification missed the point of your question?

[CLHCO]

Well, hypothetically, it would be a non-issue for me because I am "qualified" insomuch as I have Ph.D. and in my Province that is undisputed as "qualified."

Sadly, in most of the US public schools, expertise in a field is not qualification to teach. To be certified you must have specific classes for a specific number of credits on things like classroom management, certain psychology courses, etc. Then you must student teach under someone who many be less competent in the field but does have their stamp of approval. There are a minimum number (usually around 100) hours of observation required in a classroom setting as well. It has little to do with expertise. A few states streamline this but many do not.

There are those top in their fields in the universities who are technically not "qualified" in many states to teach in the public schools. Here in Colorado, to homeschool without supervision of any type you must hold a Colorado Teaching Certification. You only get this through attending teacher classes through the colleges and student teaching. An experienced and qualified homeschooler would have to sit in with the undergraduates and make a diorama of their ideal classroom, learn about how they are observed by their superiors when they're teaching, and find out about the teacher's unions in the state. All things I remember from class. :rolleyes:

Thankfully, our state does have other options for homeschoolers.

[RoughCollie]

Twenty years ago, I taught college algebra to several hundred students in all.

The first day of class, I always gave a basic math test to the students. I got the problems from my elementary school stepdaughter's math textbook. It included addition, subtraction, long division, and multiplication (using whole numbers, decimal numbers and fractions; no calculators allowed). More than half of my students *failed* the test.

I gave the test so I could determine whether the majority of my students were minimally ready for college algebra. (The college did not pre-test them for math placement.) I was shocked when only 3 of them made an A on the test.

Unfortunately, I was not surprised that so many failed.



I'm curious what a High School Diploma is?? LOL. Has the meaning of a High School diploma become so empty that one assumes a person who has one would need additional education in order to teach their own children? You know it used to be that an 8th grade education meant something. Why add another test for homeschoolers to take in order to "prove" they can educate their children? Why not just make a high school diploma actually worth the paper it is written on? CA started requiring a High School exit exam and sadly many cannot pass it and many more pass by using various loopholes. I guess it stands to reason that CA feels the need to force a college education on potential homeschoolers. Their own homegrown teachers may be lacking in their basic education without a college degree. However once again, CA is making assumptions based on it's own inability to educate children.

[dangermom]

You know, the thought of experienced homeschoolers coming up with a course for new homeschoolers to take for some sort of "creditential" is really not that bad of an idea.

Even though the thought of a creditential hits me the wrong way, the idea of encouraging some sort of mentoring is not bad at all. I see new homeschoolers who don't know how to plug into resources and they could be helped by something like this. I also see homeschoolers who are somewhat lazy and are doing the bare minimum and I think they might be able to be helped somewhat by a mentor. At least it would do no harm.
I agree with this. The thought of some sort of mentoring program or classes developed by experienced homeschoolers is pretty neat. (After all, it's only a little different than all those conference lectures and seminars we attend in droves.) My problem is that what the state would want is almost certainly something very different and would be more about exerting control than about helping homeschoolers reach their own educational goals.

The people who want the state to control homeschooling have little sympathy with the ideals of homeschoolers, and are usually the same people who want universal preschool from age 3, full-time day care from birth, and who generally just think the state can do a much better job than all those incompetent parents out there.

Which makes me start thinking that maybe we should be getting in before the state does...I dunno, how would you even do such a thing?

[Claire]

Most teacher education schools do a *terrible* job of mis-educating teachers in how to teach reading. They teach a lot of educational philosophy and theory, but completely miss the boat when it comes to techniques and curriculum choices.

Plus, I would expect that a lot of time is spent learning "crowd control" techniques, how to participate in meetings, how to handle paperwork, legal issues, and the history of education in the U.S. None of these contribute to learning how to actually teach a child. They pertain to how to function in a complex bureaucracy.

(Sorry, not enough coffee yet when I wrote this. Should be a *terrible* job of educating....._)

[hana]

I've only read about half of the responses. I am a teacher educator, and I do want to say that teacher education is what it is because of mandates from the states (at least here in Michigan). So, good or bad, it comes from the state.

Anyways, I would fight like heck.

Between my partner and I, we have K-12 special ed. certification, K-8 general certification, 6-12 English/language arts, 6-12 social studies/history. I guess we'd have to work on science and math.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Tossing this out there for the sake of discussion. Let's say, hypothetically, homeschooling parents were required by law to gain teaching credentials. (This is purely hypothetically. I don't foresee this happening, regardless of the current drama in CA.) Would you abide by such a law? Those of you who would "go underground", so to speak, what's your beef against such a requirement? (I am not looking for red herring arguments e.g. lamenting the fact that some credentialed teachers do a poor job, etc.) Those of you who would follow such requirements, please share your three pennies, too.

The problem I have with this is that it would probably require things far beyond what is helpful or necessary for homeschooling and would quite possibly fly right in the face of why many are homeschooling in the first place. The analogy I'm thinking of is the states that were requiring hair-braiders to become certified as cosmetologists or beauticians because that is what the requirement for women who cut hair was. It put a many braiders out buisiness and didn't improve the quality of braiding services (may have actually decreased quality) and resulted in a raise in the price of services because of fewer providers.

I can't think of a system of certification that would be approved by a legislature and then regulated by a state DOE that would actually improve the quality of most homeschools. I have a Masters degree in Education and I can comfortably say that few of those classes have any bearing on what I do with my sons. Most education classes are centered on the idea that there is a classroom full of kids that have to be managed, occupied or tracked. The class projects I completed had lots to do with trends in education (at risk students, drug use, racial equity in the classroom) and little to do with how to teach an individual student to read or calculate. Some of the classes were of almost no value, such as the special education course where the teacher was so loathe to be judgemental that she refused to give examples of what the characteristics of children with different diagnoses might be. Imagine a semester of having to write reports and do presentations on how you would deal with children with exceptionalities without being able to ever discuss what children with those exceptionalities could and could not do (even in a general on average sense). One of my favorite quotations from an education class was in Teaching Composition, a class on teaching and evaluation writing. One student announced how much he disliked writing and about half the other students nodded their heads in agreement. [Yet they were going to go out and be certified to teach young people how to write.]

I don't know how a state certification process would do anything to help me integrate our faith into our academics. Or how it would teach me how to challenge my gifted children. Or how to keep homeschooling when we move to yet another new state or country.

I don't think that I would be interested in becoming certified, even though I'm probably only a student teaching session away from having a teaching certificate with masters degree.

The only model of professional qualification that I can imagine being useful would be something on the model of ordination. For ordination, the knowledge gained and attested to by the ordination authority is what is relavant to and in line with that authority. Furthermore, the ordination can be done by a large governing body like a large denomination or by an independent church (our church was an independent, non-denominational church that ordained its own staff). [But then that brings us back to where we are now. I am in effect designated by my family to conduct educational activities. If my knowledge is inadequate, I get a book or talk to someone who can help me out. Or I find another tutor.]

Now if the powers that be wanted to just improve my knowledge level, they might conduct classes that would be useful, like children's literature, Family Math, how to have a science lab at the elementary or middle level, local history symposium, local flora and fauna recognition and appreciation. But these are the very classes that often fall by the wayside in a teacher certification process. And topics like this often are disdained as not worth of classroom time.

Pardon my cynicism. I just finished reading Thomas Sowell's Inside American Education. This is a 14 year old book on our education system and I could only think reading it that things are getting worse and worse instead of better. Getting worse in spite of certification and master teacher programs. In spite of many dedicated and talented individual teachers. I've chosen to not take part in that system, in large part because I don't want to sacrifice my children for a nebulous greater good. I can't see a way that certifying homeschoolers does anything to improve American homeschooling.

[Kelli in TN]

Which makes me start thinking that maybe we should be getting in before the state does...I dunno, how would you even do such a thing?


This is how I think it could work without destroying our freedoms and rights.

In Tennessee we have two options under the law. We can register with the schools and be subject to their oversight, or we can register with a private school (we refer to them as umbrella schools here) and be subject to their oversight.

I think the umbrella schools should consider tightening up their requirements, voluntarily. I do believe that some sort of portfolio is a good idea. I am a dreadful record keeper, but if I knew someone was going to want to see what we had been doing all year, I would suddenly find it in myself to keep better records. I think if umbrella schools had field reps in the various communities they serve, these representatives could meet face to face with new homeschoolers as they sign up for the school's services and do some sort of year end review with either a portfolio or other means of recording the progress. I see no problem with a requirement (from the umbrella school, not the government) for a certain number of continuing education hours for parents. This could be homeschool seminars, college classes (even if just audited!), online courses, or programs offered by the umbrella school itself.

Each umbrella school could set its requirements as it saw fit. They could choose to be very loose or very tight or somewhere in the middle. This is no different than private schools do now. They do what they wish and let a free market system sort it all out. I will tell you that the private schools that are tougher and stricter are more successful financially, at least in our area. Most parents want their children to have the very best. The little schools that are not accomplishing much tend to have graduating classes of just a handful of children. I believe the umbrella schools could work the same way.

If a parent did not meet the minimum requirements of their umbrella school, their enrollment would simply not be accepted the next year. They would be forced to find another umbrella school, which might be hard if the umbrella schools communicated with one another concerning why the family had been turned down. If they could not find another umbrella school, they would have no legal recourse but to sign up with the local public schools. Of course, we don't want to be merciless in our approach, so umbrella schools could offer a probation period for families who were not in compliance with their standards. During this probationary period they could be offered extra help to coordinate their childrens' studies, find resources if it appeared that a learning disability might be the issue, etc.

I think it is a little bit crazy that after all the sacrifices the early generation of homeschool parents made on our behalf, that we are unwilling to monitor ourselves just a little bit. I think our "mind our own business" approach may be our undoing in the end. We do have homeschoolers out there that are doing absolutely nothing for their children. I would much rather we hold one another accountable than have the government step in and do it for us.

But I generally keep these crazy notions to myself. :D

[sdWTMer]

I don't think that I'd like that idea, I guess that I'm a shade libertarian in that way.

[PrairieAir]

I wouldn't get a degree just so I could homeschool, but I've only got one left at home. I'm not sure how much longer she will be homeschooled. I feel like I'm about done some days. Other days I think I could continue for a few more years with this child. She says she doesn't want to go to public school and she has several reasons for saying it, including the possibility of a longer practice schedule for gymnastics if she continues to advance in levels. We'll keep playing it by ear like we always have until dh, dd, and I all feel it's right to change.

If this came up earlier in our homeschooling, I might feel differently. I also might consider getting the degree if I decided I wanted to teach after I'm done homeschooling my own children. I've considered it before, and I hear WSU is offering a free education for those who will commit to teaching in Wichita schools for a certain number of years. At this point in my life I would not get the degree just to continue homeschooling.

I would be opposed to such a law, though. I think we already have enough unnecessary legislation and it would be better to focus on other issues. While there are people who homeschool in name only or who do a grossly inadequate job of teaching their children at home, I think that number is probably pretty small. In my opinion, the law would do more harm than good and be a waste of time and effort on the government's part.

[Renee in FL]

Kelli, I imagine in TN that doesn't seem too "off" as homeschooling already "kind-of" works that way. Here in NC it would be a totally different approach! I can imagine the uproar over the loss of freedom would be HUGE!

My first knee-jerk reaction was that if I wanted someone else to have that much control over my dc's education, then I'd go ahead and send them to school, KWIM?

I am not saying that it doesn't have merit, though. I just cringe at the thought of having to answer to someone else's idea of what is "on time" or "acceptable."

[Rebecca in GA]

I'd abide by the law not by becoming credentialed but by enrolling in a virtual academy, provided that's an option under your hypothetical law. But I'm one of those weirdo law-abiding folks anyway. (I have my children vaccinated and mostly drive the speed limit as well. :o)

[Mom2boys]

I have a masters degree in elementary education, and was certified to teach 1-8th grade in Ohio. I really don't feel my teaching degree has helped me be a better homeschool teacher. We really were taught more about assessment and classroom management than anything else. My BA in International Studies has been much more beneficial to me, in terms of homeschooling.

[Patty Joanna]

You are both right--Julie, I was referring the the Art of Teaching, but Lisa is also correct--there are objective things that one can know about a subject area. These things *can* be tested. The problem comes in here: who does the certifying and what is the criteria? In my area, English, they can test my grammar, my ability to write a coherent essay, my foundational understanding of how to analyze a poem, write an essay, read, state the history of literature from a dates and types perspective. That would be something.

There are still two areas that I do not trust for certification. First, there is a lot more to teaching about poetry, for example, that breaking a poem into meter and feet. A teacher has to be able to discuss with students the meaning, and the beauty of that poem. And in our relativistic age, how do you measure the ability to do that. Is a poem a good poem if it shocks by using vulgar language? (Please write your answer in 25 words or less in the following space.) Who grades that answer on a certification test? Or this one: How will you teach the book _Huckleberry Finn_ regarding race? Who grades that answer? But these are the nuts and bolts of what is involved in teaching. That is where I get very suspicious that certification is not a very good thing. Lisa, you can think of *very* similar questions related to art, especially in today's world of "shock art"--who would grade your answers and determine your certification?

The second area that I don't know how you certify--and this is a problem for other professions, too--is the actual performance in the classroom. Fair assessments (it is more complicated that designing a bell curve); classroom management; parent communication. Continuing certification depends at this point on classroom observation. Well, in 5 years of teaching, I was "observed" less than 5 total hours. This is much less than a surgeon, nurse, doctor, lawyer, engineer will be observed by superiors, just by the nature of the job.

That was my general point.

[Kelli in TN]

Kelli, I imagine in TN that doesn't seem too "off" as homeschooling already "kind-of" works that way. Here in NC it would be a totally different approach! I can imagine the uproar over the loss of freedom would be HUGE!

My first knee-jerk reaction was that if I wanted someone else to have that much control over my dc's education, then I'd go ahead and send them to school, KWIM?

I am not saying that it doesn't have merit, though. I just cringe at the thought of having to answer to someone else's idea of what is "on time" or "acceptable."

I understand what you are saying. In TN there would be an uproar if all the umbrella schools started requiring anything more than grades and attendance sent in twice per year. I am probably very alone in my thoughts about this.

[Jenny in Atl]

After seeing this quote, I'm not so sure that credentials for parenting at too far off.

This is from an article about the recent CA case in the San Francisco Chronicle. This quote can be found at the end.

"Heimov said her organization's chief concern was not the quality of the children's education, but their "being in a place daily where they would be observed by people who had a duty to ensure their ongoing safety."

(Leslie Heimov, executive director of the Children's Law Center of Los Angeles)

I know this family had abuse issues but I can see many who feel homeschooling itself as abuse. :mad:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL

[Tammyla]

I always follow the laws. That said, would this hypothetical teaching certificate proclaim me a valid teacher to any and all grades, and in any teaching situation? ie....Grade School, Middle School, High School in any state? Would I be certified to anyone's child at home? You would have to work long and hard to get two states to agree on any requirements. jmho...

fwiw, I've lived in four different states while homeschooling and each one had very, very different requirements for home schooling as well as public schooling. Example on the number of days required for attendance.

How did I miss this thread for so long. No time to read every follow up. I apologize in advance if I've repeated or missed something.

[PrairieAir]

But I'm one of those weirdo law-abiding folks anyway. (I have my children vaccinated and mostly drive the speed limit as well. :o)

Vaccinations are not required by law (at least not everywhere) or at least there is a legal exemption. I'm not sure exactly what the laws are, but I know I am not breaking them by not having my children vaccinated. I do speed with full knowledge that I am breaking a law in doing so:)

[Kelli in TN]

I do speed with full knowledge that I am breaking a law in doing so:)

Then you do not want to get behind me. I even obey the really slow speed limits while traffic backs up behind me. I just keep muttering, "get off my tail dude, 30mph is the law not a suggestion.":)

[WTMindy]

WA homeschoolers only need 45 college credits or to take a homeschool cert. course. Its not 6 weeks. In fact, it varies depending on the institution or person giving it. I just looked up one course that was 2 days long.

My understanding is that these classes are pretty minimal in terms of time comittment. I know a woman who teaches one and she is a wonderful mom who homeschooled all her kids all the way through, so it isn't someone pumping propaganda. (Maybe some of them are, but not this one!) It is very easy to homeschool in WA. I don't think these requirements are unreasonable.

[WTMindy]

and I know he would want to go underground if that were the case (in fact, he'd probably love the opportunity to "stick-it-to-the-man",so to speak). Because I have my teaching credential I know how absolutely incredibly worthless it is in determining a good teacher!! But, I would probably be more inclined than dh to try and work with the law.

The whole thing makes me appreciate a bit more the fight the early homeschoolers went through and the benefits we have reaped from their work.

[Rebecca in GA]

Vaccinations are not required by law (at least not everywhere) or at least there is a legal exemption. I'm not sure exactly what the laws are, but I know I am not breaking them by not having my children vaccinated. I do speed with full knowledge that I am breaking a law in doing so:)

Yes, I know there are legal exemptions to vaccinations. That was a half-hearted swat at homeschool stereotypes. My bad.

[PinkInTheBlue]

I would like to say that I would neither agree to the law and go back to school to get my credentials nor would I "go underground". My hope is that I'd fight and fight and fight for my rights of freedom. I hope I would be in the news and be a real pain by standing up and screaming NO. :) I'm tired of so many of the rights we continue to loose in America while I'm suppose to be singing "...land of the free..." and quoting "...with liberty and justice for all." and both becoming less and less true every day.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I wouldn't do it. People with "credentials" don't necessarily make great teachers, especially for *my* dc. If I thought that was important, they would definitely be in school.

How would they regulate whether or not the child is learning and the teacher is teaching? How can they justify such a requirement when there is such chaos in the public schools in parts of the country with credentialed teachers? This would make for such a massive government agency to oversee it all, and if there's one thing I'm not in favor of, it's more government! Look at the agencies we have now that are so inefficient it's ridiculous. Could you imagine?:eek:

[Karin]

only that you posess the appropriate knowledge.

:D Or that you are good at cramming! I can't cram, but for those I knew that did, it was in and out again, according to some of them.

[Jill, OK]

That by the time I went to school, got a Bachelor's degree, and then did the extra work to get certified...my older children would have graduated, lol. A couple of others would be smack in the middle of junior high years, when I would *least* like them to be attending school.

My other beef? The amount of *money* needed to do such a thing (send me to college) would probably be impossible to come up with, and I can't understand asking people to financially wreck their lives for the privilege of teaching their own children.

If I lived in a state where something like that happened, and couldn't easily move, I'd try to creatively submit. :)

[Tutor]

The point of going "underground" is to be beneath the radar, so to speak. By its very nature, this is a choice which puts those who make it in a position of potential danger. They are Breaking The Law, be it by conscience or by conviction or by whatever reasoning. The authorities aren't particularly concerned with the reasons, are they?

To admit to such in a public forum, and particularly in a place where there are those who are well-known to be big fans of the State, with all it's "good government", specifically of governmental oversight for those of us who are simply too stupid to govern ourselves (ie. those of us who disagree on a number of basic principles), wouldn't be wise, would it?

It's not quite the same as discussing convictions and philosophies in a safe environment, where privacy is a given and one wouldn't have to worry about one's words (in print, no less) being later brought against them in a most disturbing manner.

Civil disobedience isn't new. It's also not particularly something one simply comes right out and says, "Look, Ma! I'm doing it! Right now! Look at me!" Not, at least in my mind, when there is a very good possibility that someone of an opposing mindset may find themselves inclined to make a phone call and stir up trouble for the fun of it (or for conviction's sake - I do believe some of the most terrifying oppressors in the history of man were so dangerous because they truly believed in what they were doing and that it was "for the good of ______", and not for maliciousness' sake.) I am NOT, most definitely NOT, insinuating that you would do so, Colleen. But we've seen trolls here already. We've seen the virtiol that can be spewed against anybody who disagrees with anybody else. This isn't a private forum, free from prying eyes or unsavory characters. It can get ugly, and in this context, it seems to me that answering this question straight out is much like putting the can of worms in the hornet's nest and beating the whole contraption with a stick.

Just the thoughts that coursed through my mind as I read this thread. I would imagine there are those who would agree with what I'm saying, as well as those who wouldn't. But if I were engaged in some form of civil disobedience, this isn't the place I'd opt to pop on out of the closet about it. ;)

Well, you just passed my "right to homeschool" exam. :D

[Kris]

This would be an easy one for me -- thank goodness. I'd have to go "underground" for less than six months, since this state is compulsory only to age 16. Thank goodness The Kid doesn't know that (yet) -- would he want to drop out of HS? LOL!

However, I would not go to the time and expense of obtaining a certificate to HS my son. By the time I got finished, he'd be in college himself!

[Cathycam]

when the poor job other parents do puts my liberties at risk I want something to be minimally required.

And I feel like umbrella schools who don't oversight are really misrepresenting themselves. Who wouldn't want to make money without doing anything? But that's not what the whole "system" was set up for....

Here in FL it's much like TN...

And I know some homeschoolers who need some guidance too, but love their freedom not to educate their children.

[LadyAberlin]

I might get certified. It would depend on how long and complicated the process would be. Most likely I'd move out of the country.

[Cathy in SoCal]

We are in CA and were glad to hear what our governor said yesterday. As far as credentials go, if you read the decision that the court made, it specifically says the credential would have to be for the grade you are teaching and the subject you are teaching. This effectively bans homeschooling; and I believe they (the judges) were quite aware of this. For Jr. High and High School that means every subject, every grade. No one, of course, has this type of education, nor would they have the time to get it. By the time they were out of school, their kids would be too. That is what is so outrageous about this.

[Eliana]

Tossing this out there for the sake of discussion. Let's say, hypothetically, homeschooling parents were required by law to gain teaching credentials. ...Would you abide by such a law? Those of you who would "go underground", so to speak, what's your beef against such a requirement?

No, I would not abide by such a law. Teaching credentials, imnsho, prove nothing about someone's qualifications to teach. You can't test for passion, motivation, or organization... and generic teaching certification doesn't even test for subject specific knowledge. And it would be patently absurd to require homeschooling parents to get subject specific certifications in all middle school and high school subjects.

I have seen a wide variety of teachers in incredible range of circumstances and I have yet see any indication, either in research or in anecdotal evidence, that a having a teaching certificate results in a better teacher.

(I would also like to note that college and university instructors don't get teaching certificates, nor, in many states, are they required for private school teachers.)

Entirely separate from the lack of worth of the piece of paper, I do not believe the state should be given that level of authority over homeschooling. I believe that I have the moral right to raise and to educate my children as I see fit, and I will not alter that based on laws I believe to be unjust.

...and parents who are going to abuse their children, G-d forbid, can do so with or without a teaching certificate! Greater state supervision of homeschooling, especially when public schools are failing so many of their students, seems an absurd waste of resources!

I think exceeded my contribution limit here! That was more than 3 cents...

Eliana

[Michelle in MO]

ridiculous. I've known far too many homeschoolers who have done a phenomenal job with homeschooling, far better than the public schools could ever do with their children, to support such a legislation.

I don't know what I would do, if such credentials were required. I would definitely fight against such a piece of legislation.

Having said that, I want to go back to school and get a master's degree to get certified to teach, but it's irrelevant to the issue of homeschooling. It all has much more to do with some of the health issues my dh was undergoing in the autumn, and the fact that we both feel the need for me to be employable. Teaching would be the field I'm most interested in.

Good question, Colleen! :)

[transientChris]

Here in Florida, in order to get certified you have to spend months student teaching at a brick and mortar school. I was looking into this in order to see if either I or my husband (a PHD physicist) could do some online teaching. It had nothing to do with thinking I need this for homeschooling. If I was in a state where I just had to pass a test, I might do this just to get the certificate. But again, I only am considering this as a career expansion for either teaching online, tutoring, or setting up a service to help other homeschoolers (like doing state mandated evaluations). I did look at some test that was required in one state we lived in (which I don't remember) and the test had nothing to do with knowing the material being taught and everything to do with educational theory and history of educational theory. It was very dull and if you hadn't taken really boring ed classes, you would definitely have to study the material. I had taken an education class on how to teach college class and that didn't help me any with the test. (I had just checked out the practice test cd from the library and tried it) My dh didn't want to try to look for a job in CA due to high cost of living. Now we can add homeschooling problems to the mix.

[Kelli in TN]

when the poor job other parents do puts my liberties at risk I want something to be minimally required.

And I feel like umbrella schools who don't oversight are really misrepresenting themselves. Who wouldn't want to make money without doing anything? But that's not what the whole "system" was set up for....

Here in FL it's much like TN...

And I know some homeschoolers who need some guidance too, but love their freedom not to educate their children.


Yes, THIS is what I was trying to say. I just would prefer that the umbrella schools do it and let the free market system sort it out. I don't want government intervention but I do so want to see homeschool parents held to a standard.

The handful of people I have met that homeschooled "back in the day" did not take these things lightly, as some parents I have met do now. They were breaking laws and challenging the system for a very real reason. Their motives were so much deeper than "I don't like such and such school". They had very few curriculum choices and they worked very hard. We have it so easy now days and I think some people take advantage of the liberties we have.

[PinkInTheBlue]

Kelli, I think my primary problem (if you could even call it that) with your idea of umbrella schools and closer observation is that you stated that each would make up their own requirements. That's my primary problem with AL church schools (not the same as umbrella schools but for the point...). They all operate like a bunch of little homeschooling gods or individual governments. They're all making their own rules and laws and intimidating people into believing that's the way it must be.

I guess I'm just becoming increasingly more independent/freedom minded lately and I will push against anyone who thinks they have the right to take away my rights. :)

Now, if the state make set requirements and your umbrella school just oversaw those to be enforced, that would be different. *I* would still disagree but it would be a different conversation, at least. :)

[Renee in FL]

Yes, THIS is what I was trying to say. I just would prefer that the umbrella schools do it and let the free market system sort it out. I don't want government intervention but I do so want to see homeschool parents held to a standard.

The handful of people I have met that homeschooled "back in the day" did not take these things lightly, as some parents I have met do now. They were breaking laws and challenging the system for a very real reason. Their motives were so much deeper than "I don't like such and such school". They had very few curriculum choices and they worked very hard. We have it so easy now days and I think some people take advantage of the liberties we have.

The problem then becomes who gets to set the standard? What if the ones setting the standards decided that every child should follow the scope and sequence for their state? What if they disallowed homeschooling for any child who couldn't pass some test at some age (and you had a child who tested poorly?)

That's what I don't like about this umbrella school idea - oversight is just the beginning. Does it really matter? I know a hs family that has done a marginal job at educating their children (at least according to most here.) At 16, mom sends them to the CC to get their GEDs. Sometimes that takes lots of work because they are missing certain key skills that have to be learned in order to pass the test. Did she fail? Are her dc going to suffer forever because she didn't educate them to the level that someone else decides is necessary? I don't think so.

What about children with learning disabilities or who are just plain slow learners? Do we require them to go to school unless their parents can afford the latest in therapies?

[Kelli in TN]

Kelli, I think my primary problem (if you could even call it that) with you idea of umbrella schools and closer observation is that you stated that each would make up their own requirements. That's my primary problem with AL church schools (not the same as umbrella schools but for the point...). They all operate like a bunch of little homeschooling gods or individual governments. They're all making their own rules and laws and intimidating people into believing that's the way it must be.

I. :)

I guess my hope is that there would be diversity in the umbrella schools. I am thinking along the same lines as private schools now. In my area we have small town Christian schools with their Paces, we have a classical Christian school that would make most any WTM'er proud, we have a large Christian school that uses the standard Christian textbooks and offers all that a public high school offers, we have a college prep private school that was started on a foundation that is absolutely secular, we have a college prep school that is founded on, as it says "Judeo-Christian values" but does not incorporate this into the curriculum. Variety, lots of variety.

So, in my silly little dream of homeschoolers watching the backs of other homeschoolers so the government will leave us alone, there are a variety of umbrella schools. There are Christian umbrella schools and secular umbrella schools, classical umbrella schools and unschool umbrella schools. Some place a high emphasis on testing. Some place a high emphasis on portfolios. Some have different ideas of how to guage progress. They all provide real support and some oversight to homeschoolers but they all operate independant of govermental control.

See, I am not worried about you costing me my freedom. I am not worried about most homeschoolers costing me my freedon. I am worried about those rare cases of true educational neglect that make it into the news and get legislators all riled up. If we could honestly say "Look,we are monitoring ourselves" maybe we could keep the wolf away from the door.

[Renee in FL]

That clarifies it a little. So, I could still choose *which* umbrella school and there would be a variety (for all walks of homeschooling?)

[Susan in TX]

I don't want government intervention but I do so want to see homeschool parents held to a standard.

Why should homeschool parents be held to a standard? The public schools are not held to ANY standards regarding the educational outcome of any individual child. Many, many, more children are being uneducated by our public school system than by homeschooling parents. Ironically, on one hand the state says that parents are unqualified to teach their own children at home, yet they also put the blame for the failure of their own students on the parents. Also, most abused children go to public school so the possibility of abuse is really no argument for regulating homeschooling. Not to mention the child abuse that occurs in the public schools at the hands of teachers, which I experienced personally.

Susan in TX

[Amy loves Bud]

Here is the problem I see with this. The people who are not doing a good job educating their children wouldn't sign up because, well, because they are that kind of homeschooler. So, then the government would step in anyway and require *everyone* to sign up because of these few people.

To ferret out the FEW bad apples, everyone has to pay a price. I guess I feel like when the public schools are graduating literate, employable, thinking citizens 100% of the time, then they can come talk to me about what I'm doing with my kids. Until then, they need to do the job they've been hired to do for the families who have actually asked them to do it.

As for the abuse, the same argument goes. When public schools can detect, and subsequently prevent, all the abuse situations that walk through their doors, then we can talk. But for now, they have way too much on their plate in that area.

The bottom line is that they need to be focusing on educating the children they have been hired to educate, and not worry about the rest.

[tmkclscroggins]

Here's my problem with someone requiring me to have a teaching certificate. There are teachers in our public schools who are not qualified to teach but they are still teaching. There are English teachers teaching science and math and really not knowing what they are doing. Is it fair to require ( hypothetically) one group to have these outrageous demands placed upon them while another group is free from them? Would that not be discrimination? ( I hate to throw that word out there - but since we are speaking hypothetically...... I will).
I think the NEA needs to pull it's head out of their rear and put the needs of children ahead of their own political agenda!

Sorry....I feel so strongly on this subject........


melissa

[Cathycam]

The standard here - in a state with minimal oversight - is that your child is progressing. Not progressing at anyone else's rate - but that each year they are showing that they are progressing in knowledge and ability.

I don't have the doom and gloom prejudices about public school that many people do. When I taught CERTAINLY I was accountable for how the children in my class progressed, at least here in FL, I was held accountable by the parents, the administration and ultimately by the county.

If there were students who could not pass minimum competancy tests and I could not show a valid reason why then I had to answer as to why those deficits were not addressed sooner. My sister is currently a public school teacher and not only is she accountable in a variety of ways (far more than I was) she also brings home their struggles as much as I stay up late over my own children's.

I have no problem turning in my form (which shows no scores or details) each year that says my children (based on a standardized test or portfolio evaluation) have satisfactorially progressed that year. I see it as my responsibility to see that our state continues to feel comfortable with the liberties we have as home schoolers.

My biggest problem with states where there are oversight laws and umbrella schools are an option is that many aren't obeying the law that already exists.

Each time a home school parent breaks the law - circumvents established protocol - is selfish in their desire to have things their way because it's their right they are endangering the privilege of home schooling. Because like all rights home schooling is not an entitlement...someone worked for that right, someone died for our rights, and we need to respect that enough to give a little of our own "freedom" for the privilege of exercising them.

In a perfect world, of course not, but my head is down and I'm driving on in this world - and want to leave it with as many rights for the future as I enjoy now.

Just recently one single parent here in FL endangered a benefit that home schoolers enjoy because she was focused on her wants and her needs and couldn't be bothered to follow the rules in place that governed the benefit. She wanted an exception because she didn't do her job, and it's HER RIGHT....and threatened to sue the state. If not for the quick work of our home school lobbyist the benefit may have been lost to thousands of home schoolers who DID follow the rules. As it is the benefit is in jeopardy...and these thoughts are fresh off of that....it makes me plain mad.

[angela in ohio]

Here's my problem with someone requiring me to have a teaching certificate. There are teachers in our public schools who are not qualified to teach but they are still teaching. There are English teachers teaching science and math and really not knowing what they are doing. Is it fair to require ( hypothetically) one group to have these outrageous demands placed upon them while another group is free from them? Would that not be discrimination? ( I hate to throw that word out there - but since we are speaking hypothetically...... I will).
I think the NEA needs to pull it's head out of their rear and put the needs of children ahead of their own political agenda!

Sorry....I feel so strongly on this subject........


melissa

That's going to be a problem for them shortly. Under NCLB legislation, each teacher must be certified in the area they teach.

[Kelli in TN]

Here is the problem I see with this. The people who are not doing a good job educating their children wouldn't sign up because, well, because they are that kind of homeschooler. So, then the government would step in anyway and require *everyone* to sign up because of these few people.



.

I suppose I view this differently than most because in Tennessee we are already required to either sign up with a church-related school or sign up with the public schools. I would like the CRS to be dropped in favor of an umbrella program that could include the secular homeschoolers comfortably and I would like to see the umbrella schools voluntarily tighten up a bit. But since we are already required to be signed up someone, the thought of this doesn't bother me like it might bother someone who resides in a state with no similar requirements.

[Colleen]

...if you aren't comfortable talking about it here, don't talk about it. I understand and respect your reasons. Something about the wording of your reply feels rather like a dig at me, but....so be it. I appreciate that many were willing to engage in the discussion and I hope it was as interesting and beneficial to others as it was to me.

[Colleen]

I enjoyed this conversation and hope you did, too. I appreciate your willingness to play around with the topic even though my hypothetical was ridiculously vague. The question just popped into my mind and I shared it on a whim.

In response to those who asked, I would not homeschool illegally; there are causes for which I would engage in civil disobedience, but this is not one of them. Nonetheless, I would fight mightily laws that would require parents to receive full-blown teaching credentials in order to homeschool. I believe we have a constitutionally-protected right to homeschool our children. I do agree with Kelli, though, when she says, "I think our "mind our own business" approach may be our undoing in the end." I think there is great value in accountability and I would prefer to see more of that, but how it should look, I myself do not know at this point.