Need advice on 16yo son, hold him back?

[StephinAL]

He should be going into his junior year, but has not completed or mastered Algebra 1. I have Lials Devolpmental Mathematics and see that he hasn't mastered all of his basic math concepts after going through TT Pre-Algebra and most of Algebra 1. He needs Alg 1,2 and Geometry before he graduates and I don't know how to get it all in without holding him back. Our coop is offering MUS Geometry and I considered letting him do that and Alg 1 this year but don't want to overwhelm him. I am also trying to decide between curriculums. I can not teach math and want him to have acountability to someone besides myself. He is a teenage boy and seems to care more if he has to turn in work to someone besides mom. I am not ready for him to attend community college so am looking for other options.

[Susan C.]

He should be going into his junior year, but has not completed or mastered Algebra 1. I have Lials Devolpmental Mathematics and see that he hasn't mastered all of his basic math concepts after going through TT Pre-Algebra and most of Algebra 1. He needs Alg 1,2 and Geometry before he graduates and I don't know how to get it all in without holding him back. Our coop is offering MUS Geometry and I considered letting him do that and Alg 1 this year but don't want to overwhelm him. I am also trying to decide between curriculums. I can not teach math and want him to have acountability to someone besides myself. He is a teenage boy and seems to care more if he has to turn in work to someone besides mom. I am not ready for him to attend community college so am looking for other options.

The story is similar to ours, except our son willingly did the schoolwork, but took hours and hours because it was too hard and he was too young. Our son has an August birthday, and after what we thought was 11th grade, he had not completed Algebra 2, and burned out with it (it was too hard, he was too young...). We were also very short on credits because since school took so long, we had only done 4-5 classes a year. He agreed to add the extra year. What we did was call the 11th grade 10th grade, every other grade backed up one, and I changed his transcripts.

He was really 8th grade age when he took Algebra 1, it was awful.... I talked to Dana Mosely (Chalkdust) at a book fair, he advised me to move him to geometry. He also told me a minimum amount of Algebra 1 he needed to cover, removing anything that would come up in Algebra 2. We did some work over the summer, then did the geometry. We still had trouble with Algebra 2 (part of the problem is that Chalkdust is hard...). So, in his new 11th grade, we did BJU Algebra 2 with the dvds (I just closed my eyes when the bill came for that....). The extra year, and the extra attention that that class had put him back on track. (My daughter just completed BJU Algebra 1 w/dvds, it was very good also). She did BJU PreAlgebra before that w/o the dvds, it is a very good review of all math concepts. Another good review of basic math concepts is the Module A of Video Text Algebra (but that was the algebra my son had trouble with, the algebra starts at Module B).

For math, you are going to have to go back to where your son is at. Your son may be like my kids, my kids don't do well with math that has constant review, and Saxon and Teaching Textbooks are like that. We hit that after three years of Saxon 54, 65, & 76. My son hadn't mastered anything.... it really hurt him.

If he doesn't want to get put back, I would just do math year round, starting where you are at, and then Alg. 1, then Geometry, then if there is time, do Algebra 2. I don't think I would do two maths at the same time. Also, college math moves twice as fast, you are wise to hold off on that. At some point, he should click in to the math.

I have used BJU math since the third grade for my daughter, and she has done well. I did not use the DVDs until Algebra 1. But, I don't like their geometry book (maybe someone can comment on how that class runs with that book...). So, I am trying Chalkdust Geometry for her, but will change if it doesn't go well. The problem with BJU is you have to rent the dvds for each child, and for Algebra 1 on, you need the dvds and it is expensive...

[Lori D.]

First, a lot of students who struggle with Algebra (an abstract math topic) do well with Geometry (a visual/concrete math topic). And a lot of the Algebra strugglers mature in those last 2 years of high school so that the Algebra ends up not being so tough when taken later in high school rather than earlier.

Second, JMO, but holding back a student, esp. in high school, is a really big decision and will definitely have emotional and family relational impact. If it were me, I'd only consider holding a student back if they demonstrated emotional and/or academic immaturity across the board, or in multiple subject areas. If it's just one area (i.e., Algebra), then you're likely looking at a later development of the brain areas that process abstract concepts, and you can make special plans for the one troublesome area (slow it down, repeat it, skip it and come back to it, outsource it, get a tutor or special program, etc.), while still working "at grade level" in all other subject areas.


Again, JMO, but I'd first determine if DS really *needed* to be held back due to multiple additional factors, and if Algebra is the only problem, then I'd go ahead with the Geometry and see if he connected with a different math topic, which would also allow for brain maturity in the abstract math areas. Then in the summer between jr. and sr. years, do an Algebra 1 summer school either with a tutor, a co-op, or a local public/charter/private summer high school class; and then outsource Algebra 2 for the senior year to a tutor, co-op, or local public/charter/private summer high school classroom. (Note: it's pretty common for homeschool and public school seniors to take summer school classes in the summer AFTER their senior year to finish up required credits, so that's another "safety net" option, too, if Algebra 2 doesn't get finished in the senior year.) This course of action stiill allows DS to complete all 3 math credits needed for graduation -- AND removes conflict with mom as teacher, allowing her to be encourager/cheerleader! ;) Just my opinion! :001_smile:

BEST of luck as you work your way through your math woes! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[StephinAL]

Thanks so much! Those are great ideas! I think we will go ahead with geometry this year and pick up next summer with Algebra. I may work with him some on his basic math too.

[CO MOM]

Just another encouragement story about math "clicking" at a certain point for some kids. My friend's son tried 3 different Algebra programs and just couldn't get through them. For his junior and senior years, they were involved in a program that allowed them to take dual credit cc classes. He had to take one remedial math class, but then moved into college level math/algebra his senior year. All of a sudden everything clicked for him and he was top of his class and loves math! He is now taking further math classes, was asked to be a teacher's assistant for the math teacher, and is considering math as a major! So you just never know! I know you said you aren't ready for him to be at cc yet, but even as a senior, my friend's son was able to make up a lot of lost ground.

[Laurie4b]

First, a lot of students who struggle with Algebra (an abstract math topic) do well with Geometry (a visual/concrete math topic). And a lot of the Algebra strugglers mature in those last 2 years of high school so that the Algebra ends up not being so tough when taken later in high school rather than earlier.

Second, JMO, but holding back a student, esp. in high school, is a really big decision and will definitely have emotional and family relational impact. If it were me, I'd only consider holding a student back if they demonstrated emotional and/or academic immaturity across the board, or in multiple subject areas. If it's just one area (i.e., Algebra), then you're likely looking at a later development of the brain areas that process abstract concepts, and you can make special plans for the one troublesome area (slow it down, repeat it, skip it and come back to it, outsource it, get a tutor or special program, etc.), while still working "at grade level" in all other subject areas.


Again, JMO, but I'd first determine if DS really *needed* to be held back due to multiple additional factors, and if Algebra is the only problem, then I'd go ahead with the Geometry and see if he connected with a different math topic, which would also allow for brain maturity in the abstract math areas. Then in the summer between jr. and sr. years, do an Algebra 1 summer school either with a tutor, a co-op, or a local public/charter/private summer high school class; and then outsource Algebra 2 for the senior year to a tutor, co-op, or local public/charter/private summer high school classroom. (Note: it's pretty common for homeschool and public school seniors to take summer school classes in the summer AFTER their senior year to finish up required credits, so that's another "safety net" option, too, if Algebra 2 doesn't get finished in the senior year.) This course of action stiill allows DS to complete all 3 math credits needed for graduation -- AND removes conflict with mom as teacher, allowing her to be encourager/cheerleader! ;) Just my opinion! :001_smile:

BEST of luck as you work your way through your math woes! Warmest regards, Lori D.

:iagree: both with the advice to switch to geometry (most books have some algebra review in them anyway) with the co-op and with the issue of holding back a high school student. I think taking an extra year can be fine, as long as the student is in agreement with that plan. A lot of homeschoolers use that flexibility. However, I can see really negative outcomes about holding a high school student back. What does he think?
Also, I would be looking for someone to tutor him in Algebra I if you don't feel like you can do it.

[Ellie]

Hold him back because of one subject?? I don't think so. He just doesn't get credit for it until he finishes Alg. 1. If he needs more math credit, then he has to make it up, but you don't "hold him back."

[mel66susan]

Hi All,
"Behind" according to??? The joys of homeschooling include setting our own goals and adjusting our plans according to the individual needs. We want them to be successful in their endeavors. If that means spending an extra year in a loving, accepting and encouraging home atmosphere it will be a year well spent. (IMO, of course) Think back to our firstborn baby; did it really matter whether they walked at 8 months or 15 months? Perhaps at the time it seemed important but by kindergarten it's irrelevant. They will be adults the rest of their lives (duh, I know) but I want their first excursions to be successful, not frustrating because they are ill prepared. College or working are stressful enough.

When one of my kiddos would hit a roadblock, we would back up to the point where they were successful and usually found a concept that was eluding their complete grasp. I have had many "aha" moments myself in homeschooling when concepts suddenly became clearer because I finally comprehended a basic that I should have understood 30 years ago! (like run-on sentences ;-)

I'm not familiar with Lial's math but have found TT to be great at explaining in an understandable way. I've also used Key To... when we hit those roadblocks, then we went back to whatever was challenging them. It also helps if they can see how math problems translate into real life as preparation for careers. Builders, pharmacists, nurses, carpet layers, research scientists, engineers; we all use math, but in different ways. My hands on kiddos appreciate that this problem will have real life applications! The libraries have fun to read books on that and "math trick" books that will "astound your friends!"

JMO, but relax and try to enjoy the time and make the time enjoyable for him. "Behind" really only matters if we're comparing and if we're doing that we might as well throw in a few swirlies and wedgies, too! I'm trying to practice what I preach with my own 15 yob... Take care,

Susan (who's obviously behind in tact)

[Cindy in WA]

I would not hold back a high school student, especially a young man. They are normally ready to move on with life, to become men and not to be held in the home away from "real life".

As far as higher math classes, not everyone understands them in high school. My husband and our oldest son really didn't understand algebra, etc. until it had application in real life in their careers, one in electronics and one in surveying. We have found that brain development well into the twenties does wonders for continued abstract learning.

Please don't panic and please don't make too big a deal out of math classes. Your son already knows that he struggles. He needs encouragement that he isn't "stupid". I know you haven't told him that, but sometimes teens interpret our concerns in extremes. He very well just isn't wired for math as much as something else. He needs to be confident that he was created with purpose and a few math classes won't adversely affect his purpose.

HTH
Cindy

[Corraleno]

I would not hold him back; let him do Geometry this year, then next year you could do a combined Alg I & II class. The new Chalkdust DVDs for Algebra cover both I & II and you can use Larson's Elementary & Intermediate Algebra: A Combined Course (this is the text the lectures are designed to accompany).

You can get the DVDs on Amazon Marketplace for $35 or less (for 16 DVDs that cover both courses):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618753966/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

And here are the ISBNs if you want to look around for other sources, or find used copies of the text & solutions manual:

HM labeled Chalkdust DVDs: 0618753966
Text 4th ed: 0168388362
Solutions manual: 0618388389

Jackie

[katilac]

High school is actually very straightforward when it comes to grade levels; you need a certain number of credit hours to be a junior. If he has those high school credit hours, he can be a junior.

If he earns enough credits this year, he can be a senior, but he can't graduate until he has the required math credits.

I would lay out his options: this is where you are; this is where you need to be to graduate in 2011. He might get very motivated to put extra time.

If he has truly been working as hard as possible already, then I would be very honest and tell him that it's not likely that he'll have the required credits to graduate on time. A student who has been slacking can kick it into gear and get a lot done in two years, but I think solidifying basic math and three years of high school math might be very difficult in two years for a student who is already working hard.

[Laurel-in-CA]

DS has a public school friend who took Alg. 1 in 8th, Alg. 1 in 9th and is taking Alg. 1 "honors" (they can't repeat the exact same class in high school) in 10th. So, it happens. He's a bright kid and wants to be a herpetologist...and he'd better get his math act together THIS year!!

[carol]

MUS geometry can easily be done in a semester.
Math is not my subject so I am hiring a math tutor
for 1 1/2 hours per week and it will cost me $30 a
week but he'll be accountable to someone besides
me who can't offer explanations when he is stuck.

Best of Luck
Carol