Need help with Ds and writing

[AnitaMcC]

I need some desperate help here regarding my 14yr old son with Asperger Syndrome. We are just on the path of homeschooling this year. He has attended public school through 8th grade.

We are studying Personal Writing unit that includes personal journal writing, learning log, commonplace book, reader-response journal, and responding to a short story. Not sure how to explain this, but I will give you the scenerio that just went down today.

The assignment is "Journal Writing" and he is to pick one of the topics and write about it any way he wants to (a paragraph, fragments, poetry, a dialogue, part of an essay, or anything).

The topics are: "Today I thought of something I hadn't thought about for a long time" or "Something happened today that really bothered me" or "One thing I'd really like to change in my life..." or "I wonder what I'll be doing five years from now" or any topic of choice (my addition).

Mom: Did you finish your composition assignment?

Ds: No I can't do it. It is stupid and retarded. I won't be writing like this in future. This has nothing to do with what I will be doing in my life.

Mom: T Langauge Arts and writing is the foundation of all education. You will be writing in some way or form for the rest of your life.

Ds: This is stupid writing. I don't need this.

Mom: T think of it this way... we all have to do some things that do not make any sense to us in the present, but later it will make sense. So for your sake (so I don't strangle him-LOL) just do the assignments. Once you are past all of this... you will be done.

Ds: Exactly!!! I won't ever have to do it later so I shouldn't have to do it now.

This is how he is on everything that he doesn't feel he needs to do. Anything that is opposite of what he thinks is needed is stupid and waste of his time. But writing is the worst of it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He understands that he will have to write... but his plan is to be an astrophysicist.... not a literature writer, not a peronal writer, not a poetry writer, not any of the "creative" writer. He strictly will be writing lab reports, theoretical papers, research papers, thesis papers, etc. So to him doing any of this "literature arts" stuff is a complete waste of his time.

This point of view is part of the Asperger Syndrome.... unless he can see the connection of a mundane (or stupid in his mind), he fights tooth and nail. He has always done this in school too. I could tell him to do only 1 sentence and he still would fight me as any amount of this type of writing is a waste of his time. He will eventually get it done.. out of shear force on mine and Dh's part (or teacher at school), but it is a huge and loooong battle and even then no one wins. I do not want to start this path in our homeschooling with us having huge battles over writing. He is okay about anything else to do with L.A. (vocab, grammar) but writing.... is a huge problem. Other subjects will be a bit easier... he knows writing is needed in them (even if he doesn't like to write) but he will do it. I just need to make sure the topic is of his interests.

I try to give him flexibility here on this assignment but he is not bending at all-LOL. I told him he could write about this assignment bothering him!!!! I told him he could list the reasons he feels this assignment is "stupid" to him. But no way... it isn't the topic or what he is to write... but that he sees it as a waste of his time. I try to point out that his arguing and fighting over it is more of a waste of time than him just doing the assignment... LOL, he doesn't agree with me.

I could let him skip writing in this unit and just have him read the book (he would be more willing to do it this way).. but then that is giving in to him and once he is given an inch he will take a mile!!!!

So any suggestions or insight would be appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you.

[HSHS]

I'm not familiar with Asperger Syndrome so I did look it up ;D I noticed one thing about specific and repetitive interests. Does your ds have a specific interest? Since you said he wanted to be an astrophysicist I'm assuming it might be astronomy and if it is, maybe you could get him to write about planets, etc? If he stargazes, he could write in his journal about stars he can see, that kind of thing?

I know it'd be nice for him to just say 'yep' and carry on with it but it's very rare for a teenager to do that. xD

Good luck (:

[JennW in SoCal]

I just graduated my Asperger's ds and boy oh boy it is such a relief knowing I won't have to face these kinds of battles any more!! The amount of energy he could put into railing about the stupidity and pointlessness of an exercise was breathtaking! The single minded stubbornness of an Asperger's kid is formidable, indeed.

I understand your not wanting to give in. I understand that you worry he will balk at all subjects and expect you to give in on them as well.

But you can and should give in. The value of the writing assignment just isn't worth it and he will not learn the lesson that he should do assignments "just because". He isn't wired that way and you are just going to make all of you miserable. And he won't do a good job even if you force him to do it.

Truly. I learned this from almost 10 years of homeschooling my Asperger's ds.

You should use your ds's interests in EVERY SINGLE SUBJECT because that is where his skills also will lie. He can also work on his weak skills in the context of his interests and apply what he learns to other situations. He will also thrive because he is immersed in his are of interest. He can still be writing, but have him write about science and in response to other subjects. My ds would have had a fit over a "Personal Writing" unit too, especially if the writing prompts were too vague. An Asperger's kid doesn't want to talk about personal reactions because they only can understand cut and dry feelings -- things are black or white -- there is no gray area to wallow in and elaborate on.

Astrophysicists do need to know how to write more than just lab reports, and as an example he should read the books by Neil DeGrasse Tyson, the astrophysicist who is the director of the American Museum of Natural History. My 14yo and I have recently read The Pluto Files and Death by Black Hole, and both were very engaging reads. He also has an autobiography out, too, which I haven't read, but your ds might be interested in learning about his education.

Another thing to keep in mind is that your ds will mature quite a bit in the next few years and will start to see more value in assignments that don't seem to have an obvious point.

I'd drop the personal writing unit and not say another word about it. Narrations, summaries, essays, lab reports -- all are fair game and all count as language arts. You aren't giving in but are shaping an education to fit your ds.

I won't make this any longer than it already is, but if you'd like, I can tell you how I personalized my ds's course work to fit his very narrow and unique interests.

[AnitaMcC]

Thank you for your help!!!!

HSHS: yes astronomy is his one if his favorite topics. He loves physical sciences!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He could eat, breath, sleep chemistry, physics, astronomy, geology, earth sciences, etc. He doesn't like life sciences (biology).

Jenn please do give me tips on how to personalize my ds's education. He isn't willing to do anything that "wastes" his time which means doing anything outside of his interests-LOL. Some things I can talk him into it but writing is not one of those things.

How do I give him full credit for English 10 if he isn't doing the full curriculum? He will do the vocab and grammar work as I told him that if he can basically ace the quizes/tests then I won't make him do the "practice" work (same for math). But how do I do this with writing? The topics in writing to be covered are: Personal Writing, Writing Techniques, Descriptive Techniques, Narrative Writing, Expository Writing, Persuasive Writing, and of course Research Paper writing. I just don't know how to give him full English credit if he doesn't do half the work?

Writing is his weakest area of education... very weak. I figured if I could start him at the basics and build him up then maybe he will get stronger. He doesn't like to write at all but he will be more tolerant of it when he feels it is needed (which is rare-LOL). He is allowed (and I encourage him to since his handwriting is awful) to use the computer.

What if for English I just have him do the vocabulary, grammar, logic exercises and leave composition units to just quick review of the categories of writing and then leave the actual aspects of writing essays and papers for other subjects where he is more likely to do it (still with a fuss I am sure, but just not an all out war)? Will this still be enough of work for a full English credit?

Then the other issue is how do I deal with his twin sister? How do I make it "fair"? She already feels that her brothers "get away" with too much. She understands the difficulties they have but she still feels that she is treated unfairly when we don't make the boys do everything she has to do (this goes for chores too-LOL). For example: Ds absolutely can't stand to load dishwasher with the dirty dishes... he has this thing about other people's germs. So I don't make him load the dishwasher that often... but he ends up unloading it or washing pots/pans more often then the other kids. So I try to ballance out things as best as I can. He also can not sweep/mop a floor. I don't know why but he just can't do it. So instead I will have him wipe down the cabinets or something similar.

[JennW in SoCal]

It's always good to be reminded to count my blessings -- my other ds has rarely cared about school work being "fair" as he instead likes to pride himself on being "smart" and capable of all kinds of school work. Its one of those lucky things for me, I guess. The kids each hate a different kind of chore, so they divide them fairly equally and procrastinate and complain equally, too.:tongue_smilie:

So, the way to make school fit your son's interests is to first integrate as much as possible. Don't think of English 10 as having to be a completely separate course, think instead of having writing be a part of everything and count that writing as English. You can even frame history around an interest -- study the cold war in the context of the space race, study the Renaissance along with Galileo and his contemporaries. Read science fiction and science writing.

Does he have any real world outlets for his interests? For instance, is he a member of an astronomy club? Could he write articles for a club newsletter? Would he enjoy forming a homeschool science club or give some classes for younger homeschoolers? Is there an area planetarium or science museum where he can volunteer? Could he start a blog or do podcasts on his own star gazing or particular science interests? My son just blossomed once he had some real, pre-professional outlets for his interests and his volunteer work was substantial enough that he earned class credit for it. He also created projects, including writing projects, that were related to his work for which I was able to give English credit.

Another thing that helps is sitting down with your ds, showing him graduation requirements and saying "I'm not making these up, this is the law. How can we meet these requirements?" He may not have any specific ideas, but you'll have planted a seed for future assignments. For instance, if he is fascinated by some recent magazine article, you can say "You know, you still need a sample of work that is a reflective essay on a topic -- how about you write about this?" He may well balk, but you can tell him that if it isn't about that particular article, he still needs a sample of that particular kind of writing, and have him choose the topic.

My son's interests are all things Disney, all things theater but especially lighting design, and he has a secondary interest in WWII. So, for his high school year on American history and literature, he read plays and biographies of playwrights and the recent biography of Walt Disney. He watched the PBS series on the history of Broadway, learned about the cold war and the black listing of Hollywood artists. For world history we focused on WWI and WWII, and were able to incorporate Disney's war propaganda movies into the course. As part of economics, a required course in CA, he followed his few shares of Disney stock. For a final project in science he did a Mythbusters style video on the optical effects that create the ghosts in the Haunted Mansion ride, creating a "ghost" in our kitchen. He started volunteering at church when he was 13 and is now their lighting designer for services, concerts and special events. He wrote a stage manager's handbook for a local community theater and has designed lighting for some school plays.

He is starting at the community college next month, taking theater classes, and is also applying for an internship program at Disney.

I hope this helps jump start your thinking process. It isn't that your ds doesn't need to cover all the bases, it is just that you have to be creative in how you do it. I personally think it is worthwhile to be creative as it allows these rigid Asperger's kids a chance to flourish, to really shine. It has seemed easier to me to adapt the curricula than to get my Aspie to adapt!

Include your ds in deciding these things, and by all means, encourage him to read science magazines and those books by Neil DeGrasse Tyson so that he can get a sense that science and good writing DO co-exist! (My dad was a physics professor and he insisted on written answers for all his exams because he said a good scientist needs to be able to articulate things precisely.)

[AnitaMcC]

Thankyou very much Jenn!!!! You have given me a lot to think about and work with.

I have shown my son what the requirements are for high school graduation credits and for what he needs to get into a few universities for his field of sciences. So intellectually he is partly there in knowing he has to do writings, etc. He is too smart for his own good too though-LOL. He will find a way to show how something I ask him to do is not required specifically (like poetry is not a absolute necessity to learn to read and write-LOL). So I will do as you suggest... incorporate his writing in with other subjects. I think part of the difficulty for him is that he gets so literal and no ammount of my trying to explain things helps him understand differently. Like the assignment for personal journal writing... I asked him what he thinks or imagines he would be doing in 5 years... he says "I don't think or imagine what I am doing in 5 years.... I know what I will be doing". So I tell him to write that... and he says he doesn't need to write that because it is all in his head so it is a waste of his time.

So I am going to drop the personal writing assignments but I am going to make sure he at least is aware of that type of writing-LOL. He is okay with that-LOL.

He has recently joined Civil Air Patrol and is starting to get involved in that. Also going to have him visit Fermilab.

[JennW in SoCal]

I hope I don't make it sound like it was all so easy for me as I certainly felt like I was banging my head against the wall many a time! A kid with the combination of being smart but rigid and literal is soooo frustrating!

Hang in there! You are doing a great job!

Btw, someone else here on the board had a teen involved with Civil Air Patrol and it was a very positive experience. Hope it is for your ds as well.

[Carol in Cal.]

Do you feel that you MUST listen to his arguments all the time? For some kids there sort of comes a point when you just have to say, do this because I said so, and they have to do it.

I would focus pretty hard on the gatekeeper issue with him. Get some books of SAT essays and show him how completely inane and lacking in content the topics are--because they are not subject area topics. Then have him do one of those each week and count that as his personal writing. For the persuasive writing and research writing, those are areas that are going to be critical to his career. He should have lots of practice with those, as well as with the scientific journal article genre. If it were me, I think I would lean towart those areas more heavily, focussing on getting them really tuned up--get him ahead of grade level in those so that he can wow his science and technology instructors down the road. TWTM recommends a significant research project in high school, and I'm think that for him, having something like that in his portfolio is going to be really crucial.

Anyway, I don't have direct experience with this specific problem, so please take what I say with a grain of salt, but I think that that's how I would play this. As you point out, you don't want to lose your internal discipline with the other children either.

[AnitaMcC]

Do you feel that you MUST listen to his arguments all the time? For some kids there sort of comes a point when you just have to say, do this because I said so, and they have to do it.

I would focus pretty hard on the gatekeeper issue with him. Get some books of SAT essays and show him how completely inane and lacking in content the topics are--because they are not subject area topics. Then have him do one of those each week and count that as his personal writing. For the persuasive writing and research writing, those are areas that are going to be critical to his career. He should have lots of practice with those, as well as with the scientific journal article genre. If it were me, I think I would lean towart those areas more heavily, focussing on getting them really tuned up--get him ahead of grade level in those so that he can wow his science and technology instructors down the road. TWTM recommends a significant research project in high school, and I'm think that for him, having something like that in his portfolio is going to be really crucial.

Anyway, I don't have direct experience with this specific problem, so please take what I say with a grain of salt, but I think that that's how I would play this. As you point out, you don't want to lose your internal discipline with the other children either.

Carol, Great ideas, thank you!!!!

As to your question about listening to his arguments.... yes I have to listen to them. Not doing so would be worse than death for Ds (and everyone else near him)-LOL. Hard to explain but basically for my son, if he doesn't get his say in, then there is no moving forward at all!!!!! He can't get past it with me just saying "do it because I say so". It is something we have been working on but it isn't easy-LOL. It is getting better, but when my logic isn't making sense to him then he struggles because he wants to understand and he wants it to make sense. But if it doesn't make sense then he just can't "do it".

Mostly we keep "do this because we say so" for when it is completely non-negotiable like safety issues, health related issues, family relationship issues, and the law. He will listen and follow our directions when we can say... "you have to do what we say because to do otherwise it could hurt you or someone else either physically or emotionally or damage property or it is against the law". Then he will follow our directions without a huge fuss. It is sometimes hard for him to understand, but when we say it this way, he just knows that it has to be this way. Usually eventually he starts to understand but it take time for it to make sense to him.

Things that are concrete are much easier for him to make sense about. Writing papers that he knows he won't need to do ever again.... well that isn't concrete-LOL.

[AnitaMcC]

I hope I don't make it sound like it was all so easy for me as I certainly felt like I was banging my head against the wall many a time! A kid with the combination of being smart but rigid and literal is soooo frustrating!

Hang in there! You are doing a great job!

Btw, someone else here on the board had a teen involved with Civil Air Patrol and it was a very positive experience. Hope it is for your ds as well.


LOL, frustrating is an understatement at times. Thank you for the encouragement. I so hope I am up to the task of educating him. With his genius ability in math/science, but other areas he has such limitations in... just hard to connect these areas of his education.

I am hoping the CAP will be a good thing for him. Social issues are not his thing but with it being one of his interests he is excited about it.

[Kareni]

... Get some books of SAT essays and show him how completely inane and lacking in content the topics are--because they are not subject area topics. Then have him do one of those each week and count that as his personal writing. ...


Carol had some great suggestions, and I'd like to echo the one above. Some of the college application essays my daughter had to write specifically addressed the question of "What do you see yourself doing in five/ten years?" So, tell your son that he may well see that question in the future!

Regards,
Kareni

[Ruth in Canada]

I'm an engineer and do lots of writing for work, but I'm not particularly interested in creative writing. A number of posters pointed out that there are some gate keeping essay requirements--but otherwise I think it would be absolutely fine to focus on the technical writing required of engineers. An engineer who can write well is at an advantage, so it's definitely worth working on. It's possible that he'll feel comfortable branching out once he competently writes technical things--but if he never does, there's probably no harm done.

If his twin sister likes creative writing, great! Different kids can work on the same skills in different ways. She may eventually have a career that requires more creative writing, if that's something she enjoys.

[Susan C.]

Anita,
It it helps you, we didn't do the research paper in 10th grade, we kept the assignments shorter and concentrated on the different types of papers: narrative, compare/contrast, persuasive, etc. My son isn't aspie, but the smart and stubborn comment brings back memories (he is in college now). My son loves palm trees, and I think most of his papers were about different aspects of them. I dreaded having him write papers while homeschooling, but he got As on every paper he wrote in his freshman year of college, so I guess he worked it out!

[AnitaMcC]

Thank you everyone for your help!!!!!!!!!

I feel so much better about homeschooling our twins for high school... well specifically much better about Ds-LOL. I haven't gotten it all worked out but now I know that we have a lot more options/flexibility than I thought and that we will get it figured out for what is best for us. Also knowing that other kids have gotten past similar issues and are now doing great in college... just makes me feel better. Just knowing that it can and has worked out for others, makes it easier for me to take a deep breath and keep going. And we are just starting this path-LOL.