I think I need an attitude shift about a situation

[Doran]

I am part of a women's group -- not a "circle", just a group of women who come together bi-monthly to meet, check in, be present, meditate a bit. It's really a very wonderful thing for all of us, and there is a lot of soul baring and very intimate sharing that goes on.

Some months back a new woman joined our group (invited by an existing member). She was grieving the loss of twins born prematurely and was very, very devastated by that loss. Not so long after she lost the twins, and still in the midst of her grief, she became pregnant a second time. The father on both occasions was not a husband or even a long term boyfriend, and their relationship did not seem at all mature or even particularly good. Be that as it may, we women have tried to support this woman through all of this as best we can.

Sadly, she is now hospitalized with leaking amniotic fluid at 21 weeks. The father is still in the picture but the relationship is no less unhealthy. From what we can gather, there is zero family support. The woman's parents live far away. Mother can't get off work, father is coming to pick up two horses and trailer them back with him for care, but will not be spending any time with his daughter while here (which, she says, is her preference). Two grown children (18 and 20) are in the picture, but not really. The oldest lives away at college. The younger son lives here but "refuses to participate". So, you see the whole thing is kind of a train wreck.

For my part, I am wanting to feel more like a caring, concerned new friend (though I do not know this woman outside of our group) instead of feeling that I have a wall up and a lot of judgement going on. I have been to see her twice since she was hospitalized, but it has felt awkward (to me) and, as another in our group put it, difficult to not feel a tad used. That's a terrible way to feel!! Here we are presenting ourselves as genuinely concerned people but harboring negative, recriminating feelings underneath. Well, it's just bad. I'm not sure why we feel this way exactly. Maybe because as a grown woman with a brain (she is not a stupid person..sorry for that term, but she's not!), it seems that she might have made some very different choices which would have spared her some of the distress she is now experiencing. So what? How many times have I made poor decisions?! And, what if she was my own daughter, or a long time friend?

Sometimes we are put in the position of needing to help those whose actions are nowhere close to desirable. The woman who returns to an abusive husband. The drug addict at the homeless shelter. The teenager who can't get along with his parents and disobeys them but comes to us for solace. How do I get past my own "carp" in order to be truly helpful to this woman, but at the same time protect myself against being used by someone who is clearly incredibly needy and making poor choices?

Doran

[j.griff]

I would offer her prayer and emotional support- insofaras I could. It is my personal belief that sometimes
people need to be left to lie in the bed they have made. I wouldn't do anything financially for her, really.
I don't think it is "helpful" to "bail people out" of the messes they are in which are the results of poor choices.
That's probably NOT what you were looking for though, I'm sorry. :o
OTOH, Mother Teresa A Simple Path is a book I recently read, and the focus of the nuns (in teh book) seems to be to see Christ in everyone they serve- if someone is suffering and you minister to them, you are ministering to Christ and not the individual person. Does that make sense?

[Mom2legomaniacs]

It is a hard thing to do. When we see others make really bad choices and then need our help. But we have all failed to be perfect. Every single one of us makes mistakes -- every day. The hard part, for me, is in finding the right line to walk. We want to be helpful but not an enabler. I think Jen said it pretty well.

It is not our job to judge but to love and to show Christ to others though us. Show her how to be loving without judgment and not to enable her bad choices. Maybe just an ear and some prayers would be what you are supposed to do in this situation. It is really hard though.

I know there is a new ministry at my church that involves some people with some really tough issues. They are very needy. It is so hard to find where to place those boundaries and how to not be judging them for their lifestyles. I don't have any great wisdom (obviously) but I hope you will find what it is you are meant to do in this situation.

[Tutor]

Has she asked anything of you... money, time, companionship, other resources? It didn't sound like it from your post, but I wanted to make sure I am understanding the situation properly.

Is the awkwardness you feel when visiting just because you don't know her well? Maybe the next time you go, try to find out what things she likes so you could maybe bring her a book she'd like or some crossword puzzles or something else she'd like, if she needs anything that you might be able to arrange for her (you don't have to provide it yourself), if she has any friends in the area that you could contact for her.

I tend to be shy and introverted, so I would feel awkward in this situation as well, but as long as she wasn't asking anything unreasonable for me and only needed someone to show love to her, I think I would keep going until she indicated otherwise.

Edited to add: If she is a more needy person, and you feel that you are being pulled into the role of enabler as opposed to friend, I suggest reading the parable called The Bridge (http://www.teleios.us/weblogs/mikedurand/249). I found it very helpful and enlightening.

[Whisperlily]

Well, here's how I see it. Others may not agree.

I would limit my involvement with this woman outside of the group setting. From what you've described, she's continuing to choose unhealthy situations and relationships. I'm not saying that you shouldn't feel badly for what she's going through. I'm not saying to be coldhearted or avoid her. Using your judgement in determining healthy friendships within your social circle is not the same as judging someone.

You can offer her assistance in the form of direction to resources or information she might need. You can be involved casually in the group setting without extending yourself for a relational friendship outside the group. You can offer your best wishes, prayers or advice (within the group.)

From what you've said, you don't seem to be especially drawn to her. I don't think you have to make a hard and fast "decision" on how to act. Don't become part of her inner circle of friends to call upon day or night, but don't avoid her when you're within the same group.

I hope that made sense and came out as it sounded in my head. ;)

[Elaine]

Well, here's how I see it. Others may not agree.

I would limit my involvement with this woman outside of the group setting. From what you've described, she's continuing to choose unhealthy situations and relationships. I'm not saying that you shouldn't feel badly for what she's going through. I'm not saying to be coldhearted or avoid her. Using your judgement in determining healthy friendships within your social circle is not the same as judging someone.

You can offer her assistance in the form of direction to resources or information she might need. You can be involved casually in the group setting without extending yourself for a relational friendship outside the group. You can offer your best wishes, prayers or advice (within the group.)

From what you've said, you don't seem to be especially drawn to her. I don't think you have to make a hard and fast "decision" on how to act. Don't become part of her inner circle of friends to call upon day or night, but don't avoid her when you're within the same group.

I hope that made sense and came out as it sounded in my head. ;)



The inside of your head sounds good to me.;) I agree. It is possible to be a friend to this woman without investing your whole life into her. KWIM?

[Doran]

I like the idea of limiting the ways I associate with this woman (and, no, I don't feel especially drawn to her) in order to also limit the amount of "enabling" I might be prone to do, or at least to protect myself from feeling that I have to be available on a larger level than I am now.

HOWEVER...

She is hospitalized and does not yet have any release date. As I understand it, she may remain in the hospital until the leaking fluid can be stopped or until the baby has to/can be delivered. That could be a long haul - somewhere in the realm of 4-8 weeks! So, it seems nearly impossible to avoid seeing her outside of the group setting under these circumstances. And, it is precisely these circumstances which are presenting the conflict in me.

In a normal effort to try to be nice, members of the group have done the following:

Brought her food to supplement her hospital diet
Purchased herbs for teas as recommended by her midwife
Purchased a phone card for her to use on the hospital line
Purchased a cell phone charger because hers is at home, along with the keys to her house (!!), and her 18 year old son has refused to bring these things to her. (How screwed up is that!!??)

No one person has done all these things -- it has been split up among three women. To my knowledge, no one has asked for reimbursement, but I am actually not sure of this, so it is wrong of me to assume that these were offered as gifts of support. But, that's what I *think* happened.

It feels positively cruel to not see her while she is hospitalized. And, she does not ask outright for these things -- they have come as suggestions (some more specific than others) to our questions of "Is there anything you need...anything we can bring you...etc.?"

Urgh.

Doran

[Whisperlily]

What did she do before she joined your group?

Who is she calling with the cell phone AND the calling cards?

Unfortunately, it sounds like she's the kind of person who burns her bridges. :( I only say that because you mentioned her preference for her father to stay away and not help, and her children refusing to visit. It makes me wonder if she has a tendency to isolate herself. So very sad. Sounds like a very complicated situation that I would hesitate getting involved with other than keeping an eye/ear out to make sure she's not truly *in need.*

Praying for that tiny baby who's in jeopardy right now. I'm glad she's getting good medical care.

(((Doran))) I'd like to have you as a friend. :) FWIW, I'd probably be feeling just as torn as you are.

[j.griff]

Ah, so is the issue asking her "is there anything we can bring you?" and not genuinely wanting to bring her the things?
If you do not want to take her anything, then don't offer to do so. If you genuinely feel led to provide a gift to ease her discomfort during her hospital stay then do what you feel is appropriate- no more, no less. :D If you feel you should be "serving" this woman, then focus on serving "Christ in her" instead of the fallen being that she is. And of course pray for her and for your "perceptions". (These are of course just suggestion ;) )
And that doesn't have to be providing material things. Maybe you could just get her some ice water for her pitcher if it's empty before you leave, or asking a nurse if they can get an extra pillow/blanket/towel for her if she needs one. Is she allowed to take any showers? I doubt it, but if she is then maybe a pair of cheap shower shoes would be helpful.
If she has any personal laundry you could maybe offer to wash it for her- of course that would require another visit maybe sooner than you'd rather return. :)

[chiguirre]

This is just my pov, so take it or leave it :D. None of the gifts you've mentioned is very expensive or even overly personal. They sound like the kind of thing you'd give to an officemate or neighbor, someone you know but you're not terribly close to. No matter what you think of her family, this poor woman is stuck in the hospital for the next month or two (and she'll feel lucky if it's more!) She probably mostly needs someone to chat with to break up the monotony. And maybe some chocolate. I don't think you have to have long heart to hearts with her, but I'm sure she'd be very grateful if you continue to visit her. If you don't have the cash for a gift, maybe you could do library runs for her or something like that to cheer her up. I do think it's important to try to hide your negative feelings from her at this time, she's got all the stress she needs right now.

[Cadam]

The thing is, in a normal relationship there is give and take. With someone you have known for a few years they have helped you , you have helped them... When there comes a time of great need you have the emotional reserves in that friend's, "Account" if you will, to give of yourself. You have enough history that you know someday she will do the same for you.

This woman will probably always be a taker. Some people are. I have had a few of those relationships and one sent me back to my psychiatrist! You want to show love and kindness and that is a wonderful thing. I don't want to discourage you from doing that but I wanted to point out why it feels so strange. It may never be a reciprocal relationship.

Do what you can out of kindness but be very very realistic about your limits. What you are doing is really for that innocent baby who had no choice int he matter.

[Doran]

This is just my pov, so take it or leave it :D. None of the gifts you've mentioned is very expensive or even overly personal. They sound like the kind of thing you'd give to an officemate or neighbor, someone you know but you're not terribly close to. No matter what you think of her family, this poor woman is stuck in the hospital for the next month or two (and she'll feel lucky if it's more!) She probably mostly needs someone to chat with to break up the monotony. And maybe some chocolate. I don't think you have to have long heart to hearts with her, but I'm sure she'd be very grateful if you continue to visit her. If you don't have the cash for a gift, maybe you could do library runs for her or something like that to cheer her up. I do think it's important to try to hide your negative feelings from her at this time, she's got all the stress she needs right now.

No, none of it is particularly expensive -- well, that's not quite true, but spread out among several people, it's just fine. And, yes j.griff -- I offered to make some simple purchases by asking if she needed anything. It's not really about that. I would not have offered if I didn't feel it was the right thing to do. But, I'm having trouble shaking this feeling that we're all being strung along in some way. It sounds heartless, which I don't really believe that I am. Still, it's a real feeling I'm having, so I was trying to figure out how to quell that negative voice inside my head.
chiguirre -- I don't think *she* knows that I'm having these thoughts at all. Which, in some ways, makes it that much worse for me because I don't much like to be fake. :confused:

I guess that I just need to honor her and her baby by offering what I can in the way of support, being careful not to do something out of obligation versus real concern. I just wish it was easier for me to push out the junk, kwim? I find myself wanting to parent her, be a little less "easy" - but I know that now is not at all the time for lessons, and I'm probably not the one to teach them to her even if it was the right time.


Doran

[Doran]

What did she do before she joined your group?

Who is she calling with the cell phone AND the calling cards?

Unfortunately, it sounds like she's the kind of person who burns her bridges. :( I only say that because you mentioned her preference for her father to stay away and not help, and her children refusing to visit. It makes me wonder if she has a tendency to isolate herself. So very sad. Sounds like a very complicated situation that I would hesitate getting involved with other than keeping an eye/ear out to make sure she's not truly *in need.*

Praying for that tiny baby who's in jeopardy right now. I'm glad she's getting good medical care.

(((Doran))) I'd like to have you as a friend. :) FWIW, I'd probably be feeling just as torn as you are.

She says she has never had women friends and that, for that reason, we've all be very important to her during all that she's gone through in recent months. And, yes, I get the strongest sense that there is more to the story than she tells us. Reason why her family is so distant. Reasons why she might be choosing to continue a relationship with a man who seems emotionally abusive if not worse.

Thank you for your kind words. Really.

Doran

[chiguirre]

That's really interesting, Doran. I would only do the visits and gifts because it is a social obligation. I wouldn't even give my personal feelings about this woman a second thought, just do what you're supposed to do when a friend (but not a close friend) is in the hospital. This may be my Venezuelan years coming out--it's important to do the socially correct thing, whether your heart is in it or not. I would totally fake it, with no guilt whatsoever about faking it. Obviously, YMMV!

[j.griff]

Ah, gotcha. Well, if it helps here ya go, "Your feelings are valid." :)
It's so hard to NOT get emotionally involved in someone's life when they are in such miserable circumstances.
And ITU not wanting to be "fake"- I abhor fakeness (have experienced too much of it and just can't "muster" it even when I "should" for appearances sake).
I have BTDT, in a different circumstance though. I ended up needing to walk away. Hugs, I know it's a very difficult place to be- things you just can't seem to shake and you truly don't want to "judge" this person- BUT x,y, and z. It's hard.

[Mom2legomaniacs]

Ah, gotcha. Well, if it helps here ya go, "You're feelings are valid." :)
It's so hard to NOT get emotionally involved in someone's life when they are in such miserable circumstances.
And ITU not wanting to be "fake"- I abhor fakeness (have experienced too much of it and just can't "muster" it even when I "should" for appearances sake).
I have BTDT, in a different circumstance though. I ended up needing to walk away. Hugs, I know it's a very difficult place to be- things you just can't seem to shake and you truly don't want to "judge" this person- BUT x,y, and z. It's hard.

This resonates with me as well. You said it much better than I did or ever could. Well written.

[Tutor]

I guess that I just need to honor her and her baby by offering what I can in the way of support, being careful not to do something out of obligation versus real concern.


Doran

Why shouldn't you visit her out of a feeling of obligation? I'm really not asking to be snarky, so please forgive me if it sounds that way. I have been thinking about your situation almost constantly (in the back of my mind, not obsessing or anything :)) since I read your first post yesterday.

Anyway, why not visit her out of a sense of obligation?

[Scarlett]

There are lots of these kinds of people in the world. My parents encounter them constantly in the small town they live in. Just recently they were taken for close to $100 over a sob story from a couple that was doing work on a flip house they have. The 'man' actually showed up at my parents house on a cold Sunday morning claiming that their breaker box had caught fire in the night and they had to fix it to have heat. The wife was in the truck wrapped in a blanket. My parents had both been warned about them being users and takers and liars.....(after they hired them by the way), but my poor Dad just couldn't refuse him. He gave him a $100 bill as an advance. Needless to say they never saw them again.

And my best friend has known a woman for several years who sounds a lot like Doran's acquaintance. She has 8 siblings but none of them would help her when she was down and out and she was forced to ask my friend (the mother of her grandchild's classmate) for $200 for food. My friend would just bemoan, 'oh can you imagine your family not helping you when you need it?' As time when by, my friend sold her a vehicle which the woman took FOREVER to pay for. And always the woman wanted to work off the debt by cleaning my friend's house. And then one day an $8000 watch disappeared from my friend's house. They have never heard from that woman again.

So now it isn't a big stretch to see that maybe she has burned all her bridges with her 8 siblings.

So yes, this woman Doran knows is probably a user and a taker. And yet I think she deserves basic human compassion. I would do exactly what you are doing Doran, but just not feel guilty about feeling a bit used.

[Angela in TN]

The thing is, in a normal relationship there is give and take. With someone you have known for a few years they have helped you , you have helped them... When there comes a time of great need you have the emotional reserves in that friend's, "Account" if you will, to give of yourself. You have enough history that you know someday she will do the same for you.

This woman will probably always be a taker. Some people are. I have had a few of those relationships and one sent me back to my psychiatrist! You want to show love and kindness and that is a wonderful thing. I don't want to discourage you from doing that but I wanted to point out why it feels so strange. It may never be a reciprocal relationship.

Do what you can out of kindness but be very very realistic about your limits. What you are doing is really for that innocent baby who had no choice int he matter.

I completely agree with this. I've had a few of these friendships where all a friend does is take, it can emotionally drain you. I'm leary to get involved with someone who has drama going on from the get go because I can get sucked in and it's easy to start "taking on" the heaviness they put out. I think Doran is doing well by meeting some needs for her but I would keep it surface. You know those instincts you have when you meet someone and you KNOW that there is something not right about them, so you know not to go anywhere with them or be alone with them? I think those could be the "feelings" you're having. Not that she's going to abduct you or anything else horrible but your radar is going off so I'd heed the warning.:o

[Doran]

Why shouldn't you visit her out of a feeling of obligation? I'm really not asking to be snarky, so please forgive me if it sounds that way. I have been thinking about your situation almost constantly (in the back of my mind, not obsessing or anything :)) since I read your first post yesterday.

Anyway, why not visit her out of a sense of obligation?


I think that, given the nature of our women's group -- the intimacy, the confidentiality, the depth of what we share -- I feel very close to all the other women there. For most anyone else, offering support in a crisis would be something I'd do without any hesitation. However, as Cadam has so excellently pointed out, there is no history of give and take in my (our) relationship with this woman and there has been a lot of crisis, a lot of give, with no opportunity for healthy exchange. For that reason, the desire to serve is measured. I am visiting her out of a sense of obligation. But, somehow it feels that I should have a deeper commitment than I do. That's probably just my head wrestling with my heart.

I spoke to another woman in the group today about my concerns and we agreed that what is important is that we do what we feel is safe for us and right for her, setting boundaries as needed. Case in point, the pregnant woman was hinting to the person I spoke with about needing herbs for another decoction/tea recipe. The visitor diplomatically agreed that the herbs could be helpful and suggested that the midwife be called upon to purchase them. That's a great example, to me, of how to set a boundary without feeling like you're being callous.

Thanks for your thoughts (not obsessions ;) ).

Doran