Grammar question about commas (when listing a series of items)....

[Just a Jen in Mississippi]

A friend of mine told me today that you no longer put a comma before the "and" when listing a series of items. For instance:
The way I learned it: Bob bought apples, oranges, and bananas.

She says the new way is:
Bob bought apples, oranges and bananas.

That just looks weird to me and not the way I learned it nor the way my kids' grammar lessons teach it. My friend's mother is a 2nd grade teacher and she says you no longer teach it the "old way" and my friend's own daughter who is in 4th grade (public school if that matters) is learning it the new way as well.

What do y'all think about this? Please educate me!:)

[melissel]

A friend of mine told me today that you no longer put a comma before the "and" when listing a series of items. For instance:
The way I learned it: Bob bought apples, oranges, and bananas.

She says the new way is:
Bob bought apples, oranges and bananas.

That just looks weird to me and not the way I learned it nor the way my kids' grammar lessons teach it. My friend's mother is a 2nd grade teacher and she says you no longer teach it the "old way" and my friend's own daughter who is in 4th grade (public school if that matters) is learning it the new way as well.

What do y'all think about this? Please educate me!:)

It depends on the style you're following. I'm a copy editor (thought it might not seem like it from many of my posts, LOL!), and we follow the Chicago Manual, which dictates use of the serial comma (the one before the "and"). However, our marketing department doesn't use the serial comma, which makes for fun times when we have to edit marketing collateral from them. Personally, I prefer the extra comma. It guarantees clarity.

ETA that it does seem that serial commas are reserved for more formal, businesslike writing these days. I guess the other way isn't technically incorrect, but it does allow for a small margin of perceived error (a la "eats, shoots and leaves").

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

A friend of mine told me today that you no longer put a comma before the "and" when listing a series of items. For instance:
The way I learned it: Bob bought apples, oranges, and bananas.

She says the new way is:
Bob bought apples, oranges and bananas.

That just looks weird to me and not the way I learned it nor the way my kids' grammar lessons teach it. My friend's mother is a 2nd grade teacher and she says you no longer teach it the "old way" and my friend's own daughter who is in 4th grade (public school if that matters) is learning it the new way as well.

What do y'all think about this? Please educate me!:)

You can go either way. And her way is not "new" that I know of. Just be consistent within the body of the composition.

I prefer the comma before the "and." I heard years ago about a successful court case where an inheritance was left to John, Bob and Doug. John successfully argued that he should have half. :) Not sure how true that is, however, but I liked the logic of it at the time.

[Just a Jen in Mississippi]

Well, that makes me feel better that I'm not teaching it wrong. It sure seems like a strange thing to change or at least not be consistent in the rules.

[Karin]

Just for another opinion, I don't care for that comma just before the and--I was taught not to use it a good 30 years ago. To me it looks more cluttered. My dc use it because that's what the books we're using do. My posts don't show it, but I'm very an*l when it comes to editing--I have all the personality traits of an editor according to a book I read once:eek::) But I'm not one and still manage to miss some of my own errors--reading from the end of a work to the beginning helps, though (if I have the patience.)

[Soph the vet]

Funny, we did this very lesson this am in R&S 4 grammar. They teach that the comma does come before the and.

[Just a Jen in Mississippi]

I'm just amazed that there are TWO ways and obviously, it's been that way for a long time. I learn something new everyday!


Soph the vet- Funny, we did this very lesson this am in R&S 4 grammar. They teach that the comma does come before the and.

We are on that chapter in R&S 4 as well!

[angela in ohio]

Long live the serial comma!!

Down with changes in grammar.

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[Just a Jen in Mississippi]

Long live the serial comma!!

Down with changes in grammar.

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0010.gif (http://www.email-blacklist.com)

LOL!! I agree!

[GraceinMD]

I've told this story several times on here before (because the subject - the use of the terminal comma, as we called it - comes up about every 1.5 yrs!):
I used to be a medical editor for a well-respected, peer-reviewed journal that went to more than 160,000 physicians. You would think that our annual meetings would be filled with discussions of great import, determining how best to get up-to-date information to the docs in the trenches. No. At the first meeting I attended, there was a TWO-AND-A-HALF HOUR debate, near argument, about the use of the terminal comma. Quite funny (to me!) in retrospect, but v. v. painful at the time!

It is not a new issue by any means, and you will find more passion there than you knew. It all depends on the "style manual" you use; you just have to teach your children how YOU want it done, and then mention that not everyone is as enlightened as you :)!

As a side note, my dh is a linguist, and when I rail against change ("That's supposed to have a COMMA! What is wrong with them?"), he calmly reminds me that language is dynamic, evolving, (<-- ahem) and constantly changing. Phooey!

[LadyNancy]

I remember being taught (about 35+ years ago :eek:) that the comma takes the place of "and" so you do not put a comma before "and" in a series. I was surprised to see that R&S does use the extra comma. When I see it now in print, my first thought is always it's a typo....lol. Old habits are hard to change.

[Plaid Dad]

Another copy editor here, and a serial comma fan. Here's the example I remember from my editing classes to show why the serial comma can make all the difference:

My parents, God and Ayn Rand

;)

[cin]

How many of you have read Eats shoots and leaves....A great book about the variety of punctuation styles with some hilarious examples of how important comma placement really is.

[Tutor]

I remember being taught (about 35+ years ago :eek:) that the comma takes the place of "and" so you do not put a comma before "and" in a series. I was surprised to see that R&S does use the extra comma. When I see it now in print, my first thought is always it's a typo....lol. Old habits are hard to change.

LOL! I was taught the same thing, so when we came across this issue in R&S, my daughters pointed out "that's no the way YOU do it, Mommy." I told them that there are different opinions on comma placement and that they could use the terminal comma or not, it was up to them. Then my dh, who is currently getting his PhD in English and teaches writing at a local private school, took over teaching grammar, lit. and writing to our kids. (<-- see, no comma) He marked off for their not using the terminal comma, and the kids told him, "Mommy said we don't have to use it." It resulted in a heated debate between dh and I and a more-than-satisfactory make-up parent-teacher conference later. ;)

[melissel]

Another copy editor here, and a serial comma fan. Here's the example I remember from my editing classes to show why the serial comma can make all the difference:

My parents, God and Ayn Rand

;)

ROFL!!!!

[Ellie]

and I graduated in 1969. However, somewhere along the way I have also learned that either one is acceptable.

I will use the last comma if the items in the series are compound (if that's the right word). For example, I might write, "I bought apples, bananas and pears at the store today," but " I bought a bag of chips, a bucket of chicken, and three pounds of potatoes."

[Laura Corin]

If used, it's called the Oxford comma.

Laura

[Karin]

This is very funny. I will say that I lean to common sense punctuation, so there have been times when I've added that last comma so that we all know that your parents aren't God and Ayn Rand;). Sometimes a comma can entirely change the meaning of a sentence and there have even been theological debates over something as simple as comma placement!

And for the other poster, I own Eats, Shoots and Leaves, but have never finished it.

[nmoira]

The serial comma is not used in Canada either.

[whitestavern]

I, too, learned that the comma takes the place of and, so when and is used the last comma is unnecessary. That's the way I was taught and also how it worked when I was a copy editor. I hate to teach my kids the "wrong" thing, so I'm happy to see that either seems to be acceptable.