Financial advice...

[Pencil Pusher]

I was thinking about asking anyway, but the post below about the credit culture made me think of it again....

I've told you all that the midwife we've used for our 1st 3 births has moved her practice & she's an hour & a half away. Well, she's also barely covered by our ins. Out of $2600 for a home birth, the ins would cover $600. (If they covered home births--the birth center would be $4100, but the % they'd pay works out to almost nothing, too, of course.) Once we've paid the mo'ly premium...we're pretty much paying cash, kwim?

So we're getting a good-sized tax return this yr (I know, that's not the best way of planning for taxes, but dh's income has dropped more than 50%, & I'm always paranoid about owing an unexpected amt).

W/ this baby, we won't fit in our sedan any more, which is just paid off. We were thinking that we'd use the tax return to buy a used minivan so that we wouldn't have a car loan again. (We just paid it off in Jan.--of course, we've also thought of using this $ to pay for dh's sch this semester, so it's been counted several times already, kwim?)

My question is this. Is it ludicrous for us to use part of the tax return to pay the mw cash for a home delivery? She offers a 15% discount for cash clients if her fees are paid by a certain date, & having visited the mw who deliver in the hospital, I'm pretty worked up over the thought of finding someone else!

It's not a need, since we could go through someone else & have the ins cover a decent portion. It would mean that I don't know how we'll pay for a van, although there are a few more mos before we have to face that question, & if we trade our car in, maybe we could get enough for it to cover the difference. Maybe. I was kind-of hoping to have 2 cars, but that's really not a necessity, either.

And then there *is* still dh's sch bill, but that's on a pmt plan, so maybe by the time it's due, it will all work out. I'm actually not worried about it, it's relatively small (next to new baby, car, etc, lol).

Just in case this reads wrong: I'm really not worried about these things; I'm just trying to make wise decisions. So don't read any angst into the questions, okay?;)

I just have a bad habit of underestimating the needs of things...esp mw's. I mean, I love mine, but in the end, isn't it ME who has to do the hard work? Do I *really* need $2000 worth of help w/ that? And I'm joking, it's just that during pg, I always feel very cavalier about delivery. When the time comes, I'm really, REALLY glad to have her there!:D

[Karenciavo]

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I've had mid wives for my children, in hospital. If money were tight and I could save $2000 I would even use a doctor if I had to, I'm sure I could find one (like my current OB/GYN) that would go along with my birthing plan.

[Mrs. H.]

I've used Drs. in hospitals, and midwives in hospitals. I always find either a Dr. or midwife who's willing to listen to me and go along with "my way" with a delivery. Also, I don't even go in to the hospital until I'm pretty close to the end, so I'm not on their timeframe for labor. I always ask all attending medical personnel to leave me alone with dh until I call them, then I never call them, lol. They usually come in and check when I'm close to transition, and by then everything happens so fast that it wouldn't matter where I was.

This way I can dim the lights, walk around, rock in a rocking chair (my favorite!), or do whatever I need to do to labor my way. The Dr. just has to be there to catch, and truthfully, I would even do that part myself if they would just leave me alone long enough. I always take the option of leaving as soon as possible, even if it means having a home health nurse come and take a second PKU on the baby. I also opt out of any vaccines, stating religious exemption (less red tape).

All this to say, I would go the way that insurance paid the most for, and use the $$ for either the minivan or dh's school. Just my .02.

[PrairieAir]

I'm not sure I understand. Would the insurance pay most of a hospital birth without a midwife? If that is the case, I think I would at least consider doing it that way.

Our two oldest were born in the hospital and our two youngest were born at home with a midwife delivering. We paid monthly payments to the midwife leading up to the birth and had her paid off by the time each baby was born, but at that time for this midwife it was around $1,000.

The midwife was wonderful, but the doctor who delivered our second child was even better. The nurses and hospital were wonderful, too. That was my best delivery experience, done all natural with the doctor fully supportive of my labor plan and even suggesting more natural methods to ease labor that I hadn't found in time to include in my labor plan. And that doctor was a resident. I'm not sure he wasn't an angel. I would have chosen that doctor and a hospital birth over the midwife and homebirth hands down. (He moved to another state.)

The doctor who delivered our first baby and the hospital where he was born were the complete opposite. I was young and I felt completely bullied by the doctor and staff. If my MIL had not been there to advocate for us, I don't know how it would have turned out.

All this just to say that I would consider a hospital birth with the right doctor and hospital. I was so freaked out after the first time that I prayed big time to have the right people involved with that second birth. Pray about it, Aubrey, and don't rule out the hospital birth first.

Now, as for this 15% discount, that is less than the $600 your insurance would pay, right? Am I missing someting here? Were you thinking you would cancel the insurance if you went with a midwife to save the monthly payment? I really am not sure I understood your post very well.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I've used Drs. in hospitals, and midwives in hospitals. I always find either a Dr. or midwife who's willing to listen to me and go along with "my way" with a delivery. Also, I don't even go in to the hospital until I'm pretty close to the end, so I'm not on their timeframe for labor. I always ask all attending medical personnel to leave me alone with dh until I call them, then I never call them, lol. They usually come in and check when I'm close to transition, and by then everything happens so fast that it wouldn't matter where I was.

This way I can dim the lights, walk around, rock in a rocking chair (my favorite!), or do whatever I need to do to labor my way. The Dr. just has to be there to catch, and truthfully, I would even do that part myself if they would just leave me alone long enough. I always take the option of leaving as soon as possible, even if it means having a home health nurse come and take a second PKU on the baby. I also opt out of any vaccines, stating religious exemption (less red tape).

All this to say, I would go the way that insurance paid the most for, and use the $$ for either the minivan or dh's school. Just my .02.

That's exactly what I would do. Labor elsewhere til the very last minute, then let the doctor catch, then leave fairly quickly. Guard the money jealously. You'll be safe either way -- why not choose less than perfectly ideal and keep a BIG chunk of your yearly income?

[Pencil Pusher]

That's exactly what I would do. Labor elsewhere til the very last minute, then let the doctor catch, then leave fairly quickly. Guard the money jealously. You'll be safe either way -- why not choose less than perfectly ideal and keep a BIG chunk of your yearly income?

It's not just about labor & delivery. The appts leading up to it are...harrowing, but I'm hypersensitive. Surely I can get over myself if I need to!

But, also, they want to take blood when I walk in, in. labor. Are they out of their minds? They want to RETEST for HIV. You know. Just in case.

Then they want to take the baby. And not let it leave for at least 24 hrs.

I walked out of the 1st appt because
a) they wouldn't even let me talk to someone w/out doing a full lab on my blood. (The first 5 min of the 1st visit!!!),
b) I wasn't even scheduled to SEE a mw until the 2nd visit,
c) the whole thing about taking my blood again at delivery,
d) the mw who eventually did come talk to me complained that they're a busy staff, was brusk, didn't like questions, etc.,
e) the hospital was crowded (compared to a bc),
f) the labor & delivery nurses had no idea where the mw's were (in the same bldg),
g) I overheard one of the mw's tell a sec that so&so wouldn't be coming in for her appt today because "she had a cc on Sat" as if that was nothing,
h) when I asked about stats on intervention, the mw really got mad,
i) I felt like I was going to throw up just being there at all,
j) it took over 1/2 an hr to find parking, longer to find the mw's office,
k) there is no conversation whatsoever about how things are going to be done. If I don't have a say on when they're going to do labwork, imagine what labor & delivery will be like?
l) one of the pgs they wanted me to sign allowed for interns to observe. When I didn't sign, the sec asked very sweetly (like I'm an idiot), "You don't want to receive services?" No, I don't want students in there w/ me. She looked at a mw who happened in, for an answer. The mw said, "Oh, does it say that? Well, I'll give you my word there won't be any students in there." Um, & your word, STRANGER, means what to me? "This isn't a teaching hospital," she said. "We've never had students here."

In the end, I crossed out that part, initialed there, & signed at the bottom, but it's Baylor. I went home & googled them. The mw's office ITSELF is hiring for a nurse & talks about how exciting it is to work at a TEACHING hospital w/ students, etc.

So I didn't like the place. Kwim?

[susie in tx]

Aubrey, who are you using for a midwife? Perhaps there is another one that would be priced differently, that wouldn't be so far away? I know several in the area. ;)

My midwife will give a discount if you use an apprentice as the primary, with her assisting. Maybe your midwife would give you some sort of similar "deal".

I really do love my midwife, though she might be an hour and a half away from you as well. I was talking to her yesterday, and she was saying that a birth at her birth center would be more easily covered by insurance.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

It's not just about labor & delivery. The appts leading up to it are...harrowing, but I'm hypersensitive. Surely I can get over myself if I need to!

But, also, they want to take blood when I walk in, in. labor. Are they out of their minds? They want to RETEST for HIV. You know. Just in case.

Then they want to take the baby. And not let it leave for at least 24 hrs.

I walked out of the 1st appt because
a) they wouldn't even let me talk to someone w/out doing a full lab on my blood. (The first 5 min of the 1st visit!!!),
b) I wasn't even scheduled to SEE a mw until the 2nd visit,
c) the whole thing about taking my blood again at delivery,
d) the mw who eventually did come talk to me complained that they're a busy staff, was brusk, didn't like questions, etc.,
e) the hospital was crowded (compared to a bc),
f) the labor & delivery nurses had no idea where the mw's were (in the same bldg),
g) I overheard one of the mw's tell a sec that so&so wouldn't be coming in for her appt today because "she had a cc on Sat" as if that was nothing,
h) when I asked about stats on intervention, the mw really got mad,
i) I felt like I was going to throw up just being there at all,
j) it took over 1/2 an hr to find parking, longer to find the mw's office,
k) there is no conversation whatsoever about how things are going to be done. If I don't have a say on when they're going to do labwork, imagine what labor & delivery will be like?
l) one of the pgs they wanted me to sign allowed for interns to observe. When I didn't sign, the sec asked very sweetly (like I'm an idiot), "You don't want to receive services?" No, I don't want students in there w/ me. She looked at a mw who happened in, for an answer. The mw said, "Oh, does it say that? Well, I'll give you my word there won't be any students in there." Um, & your word, STRANGER, means what to me? "This isn't a teaching hospital," she said. "We've never had students here."

In the end, I crossed out that part, initialed there, & signed at the bottom, but it's Baylor. I went home & googled them. The mw's office ITSELF is hiring for a nurse & talks about how exciting it is to work at a TEACHING hospital w/ students, etc.

So I didn't like the place. Kwim?

If someone offered you $2000 cash to temporarily put up with those things, would you take it?

If I didn't really need $2000 for my family, I would pass. If I did, I would suck it up.

[Pencil Pusher]

Aubrey, who are you using for a midwife? Perhaps there is another one that would be priced differently, that wouldn't be so far away? I know several in the area. ;)

My midwife will give a discount if you use an apprentice as the primary, with her assisting. Maybe your midwife would give you some sort of similar "deal".

I really do love my midwife, though she might be an hour and a half away from you as well. I was talking to her yesterday, and she was saying that a birth at her birth center would be more easily covered by insurance.

The other bc mw's I've called have been slightly more exp than mine, w/ fewer to no ins benefits (thr our ins).

I haven't made an appt w/ her or anything, but I've used Lover's Lane BC for my other 3. She's so good, everybody througt Tx I've ever mentioned her to (outside of mw circles) has heard of her & thinks highly of her. Sigh.

[susie in tx]

Another thought...would your midwife barter with you for a portion of her services? Would she be willing to see you fewer times for a smaller fee?

[Pencil Pusher]

If someone offered you $2000 cash to temporarily put up with those things, would you take it?

If I didn't really need $2000 for my family, I would pass. If I did, I would suck it up.

If someone offered me $2000 cash to have the baby at home, unassisted, I'd consider it. In the hospital? I really don't know, Pam.

You've answered my main question, though, which was *should* I try to just "suck it up"? Seriously, I'd rather have the baby by myself. (Poor dh! to be married to such a crazy lady, I mean.)

[susie in tx]

I haven't made an appt w/ her or anything, but I've used Lover's Lane BC for my other 3. She's so good, everybody througt Tx I've ever mentioned her to (outside of mw circles) has heard of her & thinks highly of her. Sigh.

I have heard that you either love the midwife there or hate her. :)

There is a good birth center in Grand Prairie. My midwife used to work there. She has a center now near Weatherford, but also does homebirths. Do you know here? Her name is Molly Germash.

[Pencil Pusher]

Now, as for this 15% discount, that is less than the $600 your insurance would pay, right? Am I missing someting here? Were you thinking you would cancel the insurance if you went with a midwife to save the monthly payment? I really am not sure I understood your post very well.

The ins won't pay for a home birth, so the total for us would be $4100, less what the ins pays (not much). So the 15% works out cheaper only for a home birth.

It's slightly more complicated than what I posted, but those are the pertinent details.

Thanks!

[JudoMom]

I understand everything, but I would use the money to buy a van. It seems that using the money to pay for a midwife would be shortsighted. You will need a van, if you ever want to leave your house as a family again ;). To have payments for a van would be difficult for you guys right now.

It would be nice if your insurance covered exactly who you wanted, but they don't. I would take a less than ideal delivery with little out of pocket expense if I were in your situation. In the end, the important part is having a healthy baby and safe delivery, even if it's not the kind of delivery you want, KWIM (am I understanding that there is a less than ideal option that would be cheaper out of pocket for you guys)?

Honestly (and this isn't meant to sound harsh), from what I understand, every penny counts for you guys right now, and to spend that kind of money on a want isn't a good management of funds. A van is a need, and that really seems like where the money should be spent.

[Karenciavo]

If someone offered you $2000 cash to temporarily put up with those things, would you take it?

If I didn't really need $2000 for my family, I would pass. If I did, I would suck it up.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/signs013.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[Pencil Pusher]

Honestly (and this isn't meant to sound harsh), from what I understand, every penny counts for you guys right now, and to spend that kind of money on a want isn't a good management of funds. A van is a need, and that really seems like where the money should be spent.

Yeah, that's kind-of how I feel. I just wanted to make sure this qualified as a want & not a need. It seems like kind-of a gray area.

There is a little more to it, so I don't want you to think I'm just out of my mind. Thanks for your input!

[KristineIN]

I had one planned homebirth, still ended up in the hospital because dd decided to come 6 weeks early, tried to do another homebirth, ds was 6 weeks early, finally I gave up and just had a hospital birth and still a preemie. I've had a great experience with the hospital each time. DD was born at home, we transported her, I was not a patient. Ds was born in the hospital, breech, I did not have a dr, they wanted me to have a c-section, but we talked them into a vaginal birth. Last time, I did have a dr. I'm sure having a baby at home can be relaxing, but it wasn't for me. I didn't think the hospital was that bad, not as bad as everyone seems to complain about. If it meant saving money, I would suck it up and have the hospital birth, but that's just me.

Kristine

[Adrianne]

Can you try to find a birthing center or another midwife?

The one I am currently using is very laid back and does not do much medical intervention.

Have you contacted the insurance to see if there is another midwife in network?

I do agree that buying the minivan is your best choice financially. The midwife is a want. When everything is said and done, you will have a new beautiful baby either way.

You WILL need this van and do you want to be driving around in the cheapest thing you could find?

I hope everything works out for you. I say pray about it and let God show you where to go. He will tell you what decision is best.

[Tutor]

I've told you all that the midwife we've used for our 1st 3 births has moved her practice & she's an hour & a half away. Well, she's also barely covered by our ins. Out of $2600 for a home birth, the ins would cover $600. (If they covered home births--the birth center would be $4100, but the % they'd pay works out to almost nothing, too, of course.) Once we've paid the mo'ly premium...we're pretty much paying cash, kwim?

So we're getting a good-sized tax return this yr (I know, that's not the best way of planning for taxes, but dh's income has dropped more than 50%, & I'm always paranoid about owing an unexpected amt).

W/ this baby, we won't fit in our sedan any more, which is just paid off. We were thinking that we'd use the tax return to buy a used minivan so that we wouldn't have a car loan again. (We just paid it off in Jan.--of course, we've also thought of using this $ to pay for dh's sch this semester, so it's been counted several times already, kwim?)

My question is this. Is it ludicrous for us to use part of the tax return to pay the mw cash for a home delivery? She offers a 15% discount for cash clients if her fees are paid by a certain date, & having visited the mw who deliver in the hospital, I'm pretty worked up over the thought of finding someone else!

It's not a need, since we could go through someone else & have the ins cover a decent portion. It would mean that I don't know how we'll pay for a van, although there are a few more mos before we have to face that question, & if we trade our car in, maybe we could get enough for it to cover the difference. Maybe. I was kind-of hoping to have 2 cars, but that's really not a necessity, either.

And then there *is* still dh's sch bill, but that's on a pmt plan, so maybe by the time it's due, it will all work out. I'm actually not worried about it, it's relatively small (next to new baby, car, etc, lol).

Just in case this reads wrong: I'm really not worried about these things; I'm just trying to make wise decisions. So don't read any angst into the questions, okay?;)

I just have a bad habit of underestimating the needs of things...esp mw's. I mean, I love mine, but in the end, isn't it ME who has to do the hard work? Do I *really* need $2000 worth of help w/ that? And I'm joking, it's just that during pg, I always feel very cavalier about delivery. When the time comes, I'm really, REALLY glad to have her there!:D

A couple questions:

1. Is the sedan currently your only car? If so, the minivan you are talking about purchasing would be a second car and require additional ins., reg fees, etc. Could you sell the car and use that money to pay for the minivan? Also, we looked at used minivans when our fourth was born, and it was much cheaper to buy a 5yo used Suburban than a 10yo used minivan. In the interim, we drove a 6-seater Ford Taurus. It was a tight fit, but it worked until we found the Suburban.

2. Could you pay cash to the midwife, then file with the insurance company yourself? The reason many healthcare professionals offer cash discounts is because you are saving them time and money by not making them deal with the insurance company. If you paid cash yourself, you would get the discount then get reimbursed at least some portion by the insurance company when you filed with them. I would sit down and decide whether or not it is financially do-able before deciding this.

3. Is the $2000 you would have to pay out-of-pocket going toward your deductible? If so, it may be 6 of one half-a-dozen of the other to go with the MW you are comfortable with. You are going to have lots of well-checks between the time the baby is born and the end of the fiscal year, right? Aren't a large portion of those going to have to be paid out-of-pocket until your deductible is met? So really your dilemma is not whether or not to pay the $2000, but when you are going to pay it and whether it will be in bulk or over time.

4. Would you feel comfortable asking family and friends for donations to your "birth fund" in place of traditional baby gifts? This is not your first, so you probably have many of the baby things necessary, so maybe you could let people know that contributions to the "birth fund" would be of more use to you.

I read your later post, too, about your experience with the MW office at the hospital. I had to make the same choice with our third child and chose the hospital. The stress and anxiety that I had with my hospital birth (I actually began hyperventilating when I walked into the hospital and felt pressured into making ill-informed choices which I later regretted) resulted in health problems for both my son and I that ended up costing us time, money, and, well, health.

If you can find a MW or OB practice connected to the hospital that you feel comfortable with and where you feel you are respected, I would go with the hospital; otherwise I would try to find a way to make it work with the MW you know and love.

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm a big believer in doing what it takes to have the birth that you want, if at all possible.

I would be very self-indulgent on this issue.

I know someone whose mother has never warmed up to her, largely because of a pretty bad OC birth experience. And, frankly, the issue was mostly around pain management, lack of attention, and a feeling of betrayal (the doctor had told her that he would take care of the pain when the time came, and then he didn't come in and authorize any meds quite a few hours.) So the birth was not that bad, but the betrayal and disrespect left some real scars. The next two kids she had she was knocked out and induced. So clearly she has issues, and is probably responding extremely, but still, this is not something to risk if you can help it.

Birth doesn't go well if you're not relaxed. That hospital description you gave would drive me screaming to the next county for sure. (OK, maybe not screaming. But wanting to scream.) It's really unacceptable. If I were you, I would pay the money to get your same midwife and figure out something else for the vehicle. Have another good birth--it's important!

[jmgconner]

I agree with the others about finding another midwife or OB/GYN who accepts your insurance plan and use the money for the van. Or, what about just using your primary care physician? My PCP delivers my children, and I love it that way.

[KristineIN]

it was much cheaper to buy a 5yo used Suburban than a 10yo used minivan.



Suburbans are more expensive at the gas tank, so although they might be cheaper up front, in the long run one "could" end up paying more if they drive a lot.

Kristine

[susie in tx]

I'm a big believer in doing what it takes to have the birth that you want, if at all possible.

I would be very self-indulgent on this issue.

Me too. We've been in a position where money was an object, and honestly, I was very glad that I had a homebirth instead of a hospital birth. I've had two hospital births and two homebirths. My hospital births weren't terrible. I was able to get most things that I desired.

But my homebirths were much better. I was at home, in a place I knew. Sucking it up isn't so much an option.

[Tutor]

Suburbans are more expensive at the gas tank, so although they might be cheaper up front, in the long run one "could" end up paying more if they drive a lot.

Kristine

This may or may not be true. We compared the MPG on the used minivans in our price range to the used Suburbans and the average MPG was about the same. If we had been able to afford a newer minivan, the MPG would have been better.

Our research also indicated that Suburbans last at least twice as long as the average minivan so we would have more time to save-up for our next vehicle and it would mean one vehicle in the junk yard when we ran the Suburban into the ground versus two minivans in the junkyard if we had chosen the minivan route.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

Aubrey, I PM'med you the name of a midwife to the north of you. I used her when my 5th was born and we were living in SE OK by Lake Texoma. She is less expensive and makes housecalls. I say find a midwife (yours or another) who is willing to charge you on a sliding scale. If you explain the situation, many midwives will work with you. For so many, they regard it as a personal calling and would be appalled at your being forced to choose between their services and appropriate transportation.

Barb

[Quiver0f10]

We had insurance that would of covered a hospital birth 100% and 0 towards a home birth. We chose to pay the midwife out of pocket and have a home birth.

If your desire is to have a HB, then I say do it. It's money well spent imho.

[Mrs. H.]

While I agree that gas mileage can be about the same (dh drives an Expedition, I drive a Caravan), I don't put anywhere near the amount of miles dh does on his vehicle, so mine will last years longer than his does.

It all depends on how much you are driving the vehicle, and if you are using it to drive to work everyday, plus make family trips, like dh does, or like me, you drive it once or twice a week to run errands, no further than 10 miles away. The only reason we even have two vehicles is that we live out in the country and dh won't allow me to be here with the kids and no car during the day. There have been several situations where an ER visit was necessary, and I was glad to have my car. He also travels for business quite a bit, and wouldn't leave town and leave me without a car.

My minivan is a 2001, and dh's suv is a 2003. His suv has several thousand more miles on it than my minivan, and takes a lot more wear and tear.

[PrairieAir]

I'm sorry, but if I didn't know there is a street in Dallas called Lovers Lane, I would be very confused about that Lovers Lane Birth Center:D

[Osmosis Mom]

but what you desccribed at your first (failed) visit to the new midwife sounds like standard procedure (with a few pregnancy-hormones thrown in). I remember my first visit to an OB-Gyn here in the States and was appalled that I had to give my history (and blood) to a nurse before even seeing the doctor at the next visit, but really that's the procedure in most cases.

I am also highly private and possessive about my self, but I have delivered in different places, once by a totally stranger doctor. My meeting iwth him while delivering and post-partum lasted one hour max.

I just had our 7th child and there is no way I could have gotten a doula for $1000 and I had no guarantee of even delivering with my doctor. I really wanted this pregnancy, though, and did what I had to do... We also have the car-issue and there is no way I would have been able to reason the money for a vehicle away as LONG as I would still have a safe delivery with skilled personnel (I am not pro-homebirths to begin with).

I hope everything turns out the best for you and that you get your anxiety worked out. I totally understand, but it's sort of part of the bargain of motherhood....

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

A thought experiment for those who advise Audrey to put the money toward a van: Would you advise her to put her kids in school for a year in order to make the same money? Or would you help her to figure out an alternative solution? Would trading in the car for a single van be acceptable in this situation? Borrowing part of the money? Is homeschooling a need or a want?

Barb

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

A thought experiment for those who advise Audrey to put the money toward a van: Would you advise her to put her kids in school for a year in order to make the same money? Or would you help her to figure out an alternative solution? Would trading in the car for a single van be acceptable in this situation? Borrowing part of the money? Is homeschooling a need or a want?

Barb

No. For one thing, not all of her kids would be in school.

This inconveniences Aubrey, and only Aubrey. It doesn't turn her kids' lives upside down. (And I say this as a person who has very happily used the public school system.)

If I could help Aubrey find an alternative solution, I would do so. Others have offered such help. I cannot offer it. My solution was to go in at the last possible minute to deliver the baby. That was before I realized that part of her concern was what she considered intrusive prenatal care, not just the birth part.

Borrowing money? In Aubrey's current situation? Heck, no.

Homeschooling is a luxury in my house. One I was thankful for on a daily basis and never took for granted. But staying home with preschool children is not a luxury unless 1) we are not paying our bills or 2) we are not eating. (And to clarify, we're living on 1/2 of an income right now so a parent can stay home with our preschooler, so I do put my lack of money where my mouth is. Our whole family is *sacrificing* for this, so no, that part is not a luxury.) This might vary depending on the school district, but yes, in general, homeschooling is a dearly held luxury, though it's one worth sacrificing a great deal for as well -- though maybe not as much, IME, as sacrificing to stay home with a preschooler.

Anyway, apples and oranges.

Thus endeth my allotment of thinking for the day. As you were. :D (Hey, it's Spring Break!)

Standard disclaimer: Not raggin' on anyone who doesn't have a full-time parent stay home with preschoolers, not dissin' anyone whose choices might be different than mine. My opinions are not necessarily those of TWTM or its parent company, PHP, or any of its affiliates, or Norton, or anybody else. YMMV, etc, yada yada.

Oh, and trading in a car is NEVER a good idea. Sell it privately then apply the money to a new vehicle.

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

Anyway, apples and oranges.

I don't know that it is. I think for some, homebirth is as fundamental as homeschooling. I would actually send my kids to school for a year rather than see an OB for the same amount of time and deliver in a hospital, given a forced choice. To me, public school for a year would be less of an upheaval. I wasn't trying to be argumentative, but to give a different perspective. Many posters were answering with a shoulder shrug and a "no big deal" kind of toss off. I think it would be more helpful to dig down and find something deeply important (like homeschooling) and then weigh it against the money before answering.

I can't walk into an OB's office without my blood pressure spiking. Literally. I almost got myself tossed from homebirthing a couple of babies ago because my blood pressure was sky-high in the office. I had to go in once to see the backup physician, who was very kind and a friend of the family, BTW. I never had the same problem with the midwife. I go into fight or flight mode. It's probably a phobia borne from my horrifying first birth in the hospital. It would be a no-brainer for me to avoid the nausea, tears, panic attacks, and feelings of violation that have gone along with later attempts to connect with an obstetrician's office, no matter what the cost. It wouldn't be good for me or for the baby.

FWIW, I agree with you that homeschooling is a very expensive luxury...one that most of us sacrifice for on a regular basis. That was my point :)

Barb

[KristineIN]

Maybe we should ask Dave Ramsey what he would do? :D

For us personally, if we didn't have the money for what we want, we would find an alternative solution. If that meant dh working more or me working part time, we would try all available resources before the children EVER went into school. Women have been having births in hospitals for many years and most come out ok. Thankfully my experience was different with each one, but each was positive. A day in the hospital for a normal birth would be much better than a week in the NICU (which was my case with each baby.) A day really isn't that long of a time when you look how many days are in an average life.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Blessings,
Kristine

[Mamagistra]

The ins won't pay for a home birth, so the total for us would be $4100, less what the ins pays (not much). So the 15% works out cheaper only for a home birth.

Have you spoken with your insurer? I had to fight tooth-and-nail to get our oh-so-enlightened insurance to cover our birth center in-network like the midwife, but it was worth it. They paid. So if it's Blue Cross Blue Shield of Texas, let me know. ;) I can't speak for their home birth policies, though...IMNSHO, there is too much standardized pressure in a hospital for me to advocate that choice for anyone outside of those with actual risk.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I don't know that it is.

Barb

Well, I guess my point is, for me it is completely unrelated. And I can appreciate that for some, this is completely related. :-)

She asked our opinion about the wisdom of doing this with a midwife and paying $2K vs. using the same $2K toward the purchase of a larger vehicle. And I answered based on what I considered wise.

Now, had she told us that this was a done deal and asked for us to help her come up with ways to offset this cost, I might have offered an idea. Likely, I wouldn't have had any notion as to how to help. But I sure wouldn't have said, "Suck it up." LOL

This may be non-negotiable for you, and I think Aubrey's trying to figure out if it's non-negotiable for her. And I figure she's open, as well, to a variety of viewpoints. But I mostly think it's ok to *have* another opinion and not try to bolster the one that she's mostly wavering toward if she asked for all options to be put on the table.

[susie in tx]

Women have been having births in hospitals for many years and most come out ok. Thankfully my experience was different with each one, but each was positive. A day in the hospital for a normal birth would be much better than a week in the NICU (which was my case with each baby.) A day really isn't that long of a time when you look how many days are in an average life.


You could also say the same about schooling. People have been putting their kids in school for many years, and they came out ok. I think this is not logical.

I know putting a child in school lasts more than a day, but a birth can affect a child's life for the rest of his/her life. It can also leave lasting scars on a mother.

For me, birthing is as important as schooling. Aubrey, please let G-d know your heart's desire. He will find a way for you.

[Carol in Cal.]

.nt

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

I know putting a child in school lasts more than a day, but a birth can affect a child's life for the rest of his/her life. It can also leave lasting scars on a mother.

You're right, and it isn't just the one day...it's the 9 months of being rushed and herded like a farm animal, often treated as a brainless vessel, poked, prodded, and at times humiliated. A child in school for one school year (9 mos), vs. 9 months of prenatals leading up to that one day. I think it's an even trade.

Barb

[Barb F. PA in AZ]

But I mostly think it's ok to *have* another opinion and not try to bolster the one that she's mostly wavering toward if she asked for all options to be put on the table.

Sure, other opinions are fine and I'm not trying to convince anyone that mine is the only option. I just felt that the other side wasn't represented at all. Most people were looking at this situation as a simple preference rather than a serious decision to be made.

Barb

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Sure, other opinions are fine and I'm not trying to convince anyone that mine is the only option. I just felt that the other side wasn't represented at all. Most people were looking at this situation as a simple preference rather than a serious decision to be made.

Barb

Perhaps. Perhaps the complexity of the entire situation makes it easier for me to boil it down to what *I* would choose. And now the other side is being presented quite well.

To use your schooling example, I think some of us on this board think those of us who consider institutional schooling a valid option among many for our children simply haven't thought the issue through thoroughly or are not looking at all the ramifications of that option. But in fact, many of us have done so. Yet we come to a different conclusion. Though I don't (yeah, even now) find the choices similar, it is at least similar in this regard.

Peace,

[Karenciavo]

A thought experiment for those who advise Audrey to put the money toward a van: Would you advise her to put her kids in school for a year in order to make the same money? Or would you help her to figure out an alternative solution? Would trading in the car for a single van be acceptable in this situation? Borrowing part of the money? Is homeschooling a need or a want?

Barb

I guess I see it differently and I imagine Aubrey and I have very different sensibilities. If a hospital birth has the possibility of traumatizing her and the baby, then by all means take that into consideration.

[Elaine]

It's not just about labor & delivery. The appts leading up to it are...harrowing, but I'm hypersensitive. Surely I can get over myself if I need to!

But, also, they want to take blood when I walk in, in. labor. Are they out of their minds? They want to RETEST for HIV. You know. Just in case.

Then they want to take the baby. And not let it leave for at least 24 hrs.

I walked out of the 1st appt because
a) they wouldn't even let me talk to someone w/out doing a full lab on my blood. (The first 5 min of the 1st visit!!!),
b) I wasn't even scheduled to SEE a mw until the 2nd visit,
c) the whole thing about taking my blood again at delivery,
d) the mw who eventually did come talk to me complained that they're a busy staff, was brusk, didn't like questions, etc.,
e) the hospital was crowded (compared to a bc),
f) the labor & delivery nurses had no idea where the mw's were (in the same bldg),
g) I overheard one of the mw's tell a sec that so&so wouldn't be coming in for her appt today because "she had a cc on Sat" as if that was nothing,
h) when I asked about stats on intervention, the mw really got mad,
i) I felt like I was going to throw up just being there at all,
j) it took over 1/2 an hr to find parking, longer to find the mw's office,
k) there is no conversation whatsoever about how things are going to be done. If I don't have a say on when they're going to do labwork, imagine what labor & delivery will be like?
l) one of the pgs they wanted me to sign allowed for interns to observe. When I didn't sign, the sec asked very sweetly (like I'm an idiot), "You don't want to receive services?" No, I don't want students in there w/ me. She looked at a mw who happened in, for an answer. The mw said, "Oh, does it say that? Well, I'll give you my word there won't be any students in there." Um, & your word, STRANGER, means what to me? "This isn't a teaching hospital," she said. "We've never had students here."

In the end, I crossed out that part, initialed there, & signed at the bottom, but it's Baylor. I went home & googled them. The mw's office ITSELF is hiring for a nurse & talks about how exciting it is to work at a TEACHING hospital w/ students, etc.

So I didn't like the place. Kwim?


Well, there are lots of places that I don't like, but sometimes I just have to go to them.

Aubrey, I feel for you and your situation, I truly do so please take this in the spirit in which it is intended. I have read about your financial woes in the past so this, to me, seems like a no-brainer.

Surely you can put up with those things. And, for the life of me, I would never let doctor's office workers treat me that way. Maybe you just need to go in there and assert yourself.

I never let them draw blood for HIV tests or do an amnio. I refused all tests that would determine birth defects because I knew what they were going to counsel me to do. Heck, I didn't even get on the scale half the time! Yes, the doctors and nurses were aghast but, who cares what they think? This is your body. Your baby. Your pregnancy. You alone decide what is best and what will touch your body and what won't.

I used a mid-wife for my last pregnancy and delivery and delivered in the hospital, but I did Bradley with my other two and had OB's deliver them.

I don't know if any of this helps.

You need to ask yourself what is more important. Owning a vehicle free and clear or pretty close to it, or having your own way so that you can have a great birth experience.

[Renee in FL]

Elaine, that was no my experience. My last baby the practice would not accept me as a patient unless I did what they wanted. Some things were optional, but others weren't.

I was also not allowed to take my baby from the hospital after she was born until the ped on duty released her. Our local hospital has the ankle bracelet security system - until they removed that anklet, the doors would not open and the elevator would not operate. I tried to sign out AMA after the ped on duty didn't show up - they were happy for me to go, but I could not take the baby. They also would not let you leave until they saw the infant seat installed in your car properly.

I will NEVER have another hospital birth unless my baby's health were in danger.

[Elaine]

Elaine, that was no my experience. My last baby the practice would not accept me as a patient unless I did what they wanted. Some things were optional, but others weren't.

I was also not allowed to take my baby from the hospital after she was born until the ped on duty released her. Our local hospital has the ankle bracelet security system - until they removed that anklet, the doors would not open and the elevator would not operate. I tried to sign out AMA after the ped on duty didn't show up - they were happy for me to go, but I could not take the baby. They also would not let you leave until they saw the infant seat installed in your car properly.

I will NEVER have another hospital birth unless my baby's health were in danger.


I'm sorry that you had a bad experience.

I think sometimes we see only the bad in a situation because we don't really like the reality that is facing us. In Aubrey's case, what is there that's so bad? Besides being inconvenient and not really what she wants, where is the danger.

She is in a difficult financial situation right now and, in my opinion, she does not have the luxury of getting what she wants just because she wants it.

I would feel more ill at ease with the thought of not having a vehicle to hold all of my children safely or having debt and a new baby and a husband who took a 50% paycut.

[bkpan]

You're right, and it isn't just the one day...it's the 9 months of being rushed and herded like a farm animal, often treated as a brainless vessel, poked, prodded, and at times humiliated. A child in school for one school year (9 mos), vs. 9 months of prenatals leading up to that one day. I think it's an even trade.

Barb

Maybe she could spend some more time looking for the OB that doesn't make her uncomfortable. My first birth was also a horrific hospital experience, then I went on to have a couple of birth center births, and a couple more hospital births. None were as bad as my first birth. The midwives were wonderful, but my very last birth was assisted by the most wonderful OB. I wish that I had found him with my first!

My point being that perhaps she could do some more looking and find an OB/hospital experience that she could be at peace about. Ask around, Aubrey. I found my OB through some other hs moms that raved about their experiences. HTH!

Kim in TN (used to be in NV)

[chiguirre]

One thing to consider is if you would get your money back if you needed to have a c section. I personally would be :mad: if I spent the $2000, gave up the mobility of a larger vehicle and then ended up in the hospital anyway. If you don't get a refund in case of a hospital birth, I would definitely not pay $2000 in advance to a midwife for a homebirth. It just seems like a Murphy's Law example waiting to happen.

I don't want to freak you out more, but there is always a small chance you'll need a c section. You should always hope for the best, but prepare for the worst especially financially.

[Eliana]

I absolutely would not make this type of decision based on financial issues. As with any other medical issue, we would first choose what we believed to be the best approach and then do whatever it took to make that happen financially.

I say this even though we are passionately anti-debt in our financial mindset. We have a mortgage on our home, but no other debt. We have one credit card which we use and pay off each month. More than that, we try to avoid 'hidden' debt as well (including deferred maintenance, postponing paying bills, etc) - we're trying to institute a 24-hour turn around: paying all bills within 24 hours of having the bill arrive at our house.

However, we willingly incurred debt to be able to have the births we felt were best for me and for our babies... and if I am ever able to have another child, we would do so again in an instant. It is not worth the savings, it would not be worth a new car to labor and or deliver in an environment that was not what we felt was best for our baby - or for me.

I had four amazing homebirths and one hospital birth (with the twins, the presenting twin was footling breech).

With the twins I saw a perinatologist, paid for by our insurance, and we paid our-of-pocket separately for a midwife... in case a homebirth ended up being possible.

The hospital birth was fine, as hospital births go, and I had a provider who was supportive and respectful of our birth choices, who discussed things candidly with us and all the good things...but, though it was tolerable, it proved to me that this was not how I wanted to birth.

(If you want specifics, let me know, but I don't think they are really relevant to your central issue.)

If you believe that a homebirth is the best choice for you and your baby, I would say follow your heart and trust that the money will work out the way it is supposed to... and don't let guilt or a misplaced sense of pragmatism get in the way!


Eliana

[Colleen]

She is in a difficult financial situation right now and, in my opinion, she does not have the luxury of getting what she wants just because she wants it. I would feel more ill at ease with the thought of not having a vehicle to hold all of my children safely or having debt and a new baby and a husband who took a 50% paycut.

These are my sentiments, too.

[Colleen]

You're right, and it isn't just the one day...it's the 9 months of being rushed and herded like a farm animal, often treated as a brainless vessel, poked, prodded, and at times humiliated. A child in school for one school year (9 mos), vs. 9 months of prenatals leading up to that one day. I think it's an even trade.


I am sorry that your experiences with the conventional medical establishment (as regards birthing) have been so negative. Happily for me, your description is not my reality. I utilized three different OBs (and a number of other specialists) with the four boys I birthed in this country and while each was not necessarily my dream candidate, I certainly was never treated like an assembly line farm animal. I am absoultely convinced ~ based on my experiences and those of my many "real life" friends across the country ~ that your description is not the norm. It is possible to avoid what you're describing. (Actually, I'd have to work hard to find what you're describing.)

As for the "even trade" you mentioned, I just can't wrap my brain around that. Let's say I did have to endure nine months of prenatal visits and a birthing experience that was not my ideal. (My birthing experiences were fraught with emergencies, btw, so "less than ideal" is my motto.;)) Prenatal visits add up to a handful of hours over a handful of days. School is an all-day, five day a week endeavour. Doesn't seem like a very even trade from my perspective...

[Danestress]

I had my babies in the hospital and had a good experience. Not perfect, I'm sure, but I am pretty flexible. I know some women have really strong feelings about this whole experience, and I guess I am low maintenance. But I do know how it feels in general to want something that is important to you to be a certain way and to have to give it up.

So that's where I am coming from, and you know what I am going to say next already:) I would suck it up and use the money for something that benefits the whole family - a better van, perhaps. I'm sure everyone is making major sacrifices with your husband in school. He is, the kids are, and you are. I would probably sacrifice some of my visions of what the birthing experience should be in the interests of benefiting the whole group.

Now, if you are pretty sure that the baby will be at risk in the hospital, that's different. I'm not sure what you thoughts are on that. But if you feel like either way, you will go home with a healthy baby, I would want to go home with a healthy baby and $2000 if money were super tight.

Of course, if your husband really really wants to do the homebirth, that might make a difference. I'd certainly try to negotiate with the insurance company.

I hope whatever decision you make, you will have peace with it and that your financial situation won't be a stresser for you or your DH. And I hope either way, you will have a great experience and a healthy baby!

[Renee in FL]

I think what makes it different for me than for Aubrey is that I don't have insurance, so I am paying for a birth no matter which way we go! In my case, though, a birth center birth or a homebirth would be $3-4,000 while the hospital birth would be $6,000, so I SAVE money. (And, if I had realized that the OB would charge me $2300 whether I had prenatal care or not, I would have gotten the stinkin' prenatal care and not been such a basket case!)

[8FillTheHeart]

I have never felt "invaded" upon during labor in a hospital. I have been totally left alone with my dh until I call them in. Yes, they check my cervix....but if I ask them not to, they don't. With my last dd, I had to yell at my dh to actually get the nurse and dr b/c I felt the baby crowning and he didn't believe me!!

With the exception of blood work at my very first drs appointment (which I don't see as a neg.....I get my thyroid checked even when I'm not preg, I have no objections to blood work), I never have anything done that I don't specifically ask for, or at the minimum, agree to. (I have never had my blood drawn while in labor, either) And there are lots of things I don't agree to (AFP for one)

Perhaps instead of seeing this as all one way or another, you should see if perhaps you can find a dr that is willing to agree to your vision. Are there other women you know where you are that might be able to give you any recommendations? I have had some wonderful OBs. I think the biggest thing is that you have to make sure you are vocal about what you want. I have only ever had one OB say he wouldn't do things my way.....that was fine. I simply found a different one. It was my first appointment with him and we had different POVs.

I hope you can find a way to have the delivery you envision and use the money for other expenses.

[Pencil Pusher]

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful input. One thing I like about the boards is how much help y'all can be in thinking through a situation. There is always someone who can voice what I feel so well. In this case, you all are articulating exactly the dilemma as I see it.

First, we don't have money to just throw around. If this were a case of a new TV or a nicer car, there would be no question.

Second, though, a home/birth center birth is VERY important to me. I appreciated the comparison between homebirth & homeschool. Yes, they are both luxuries, but dearly held ones.

I do believe that I will most likely have a healthy delivery either way, but I am completely paranoid, & I would be an absolute basket case in a hospital. Is that worth $2000 to me to avoid? Well, even w/ normal ins, it cost $1000 to deliver our last baby w/ our mw. Having never delivered in a hospital, I don't know how that compares w/ trad. costs.

We are making sacrifices for dh to be in seminary. I guess one way that I'm looking at it is: is this a sacrifice that I'm willing to make? Living in a smaller home, sure. Continuing to drive one car longer than I'd hoped, no problem. Seeing less of dh, ugh. But ok.

We agreed that we wouldn't give up hs'ing for him to be in seminary. This (homebirth) issue is big enough to me that it might constitute foregoing school, kwim? It might not come to that, but...it's pretty important.

Fwiw, I think I'm pretty easy-going w/ somebody I trust, I just don't automatically trust somebody in a white lab coat, kwim? One person said that I was not in a position to "have things my way" or that the only issue was inconvenience. The mw in question is much more inconvenient. She's 1.5 hrs away. She would require a significant sacrifice of time & $. If I didn't want to be "inconvenienced" or if I didn't care, I'd just go to the hospital. Then I wouldn't have to think about it at all.

I'd like for you to consider the opposite scenario: what if your ins only covered homebirths? Statistically, let's say, this was just as safe or even safer than hospital births, but due to technology, etc., you feel safer/more comfortable/etc. in a hospital. I think most women would be willing to pay $2000 out of pocket for that kind of peace of mind. It's hard to look at it the other way around because it's not the norm.

I've been thinking a lot about what bothers me so much about a hospital. I don't like feeling bullied or so out of control, for one, but that has a lot to do with a "bullied" childhood. I'm also very uncomfortable with so many people in the building. There was nothing preventing me from going into any of the rooms in labor/delivery. Why does this matter? Again, I had a strange childhood that was heavily influenced by a lot of sexual abuse, not to me directly, but I knew about it from a preschool age.

So I realize that I'm hypersensitive, but I also know that I'm that way to a degree that *could* prove problematic to the birth. I'm shaking just writing this, lol.

I'm still not comfortable w spending $2000 that isn't technically necessary, but I tend to err on that side. I was raised incredibly poor, & I know that very little actually *is* necessary.

I'm lucky to be in a position where our financial limitations are sort-of an illusion. Theoretically, dh could simply quit school, & we could pick up a normal-ish life. I think that influences my decisions.

Thanks again, everybody, for your input. I'm still not sure what to do, but you all have helped me to think about it a little more clearly. (I hope!;))

[8FillTheHeart]

I've been thinking a lot about what bothers me so much about a hospital. I don't like feeling bullied or so out of control, for one, but that has a lot to do with a "bullied" childhood. I'm also very uncomfortable with so many people in the building. There was nothing preventing me from going into any of the rooms in labor/delivery

Honestly, Aubrey, I have never felt out of control, bullied, or even domineered in the hospital. I have never had anyone, even once, try to make me accept something other than the way I totally wanted things to go. I also don't have lots of people in the room during delivery.

I guess I have to wonder if you have a realistic vision of hospital deliveries? I have never used a MW.....maybe they have less control over what occurs in a hospital than an OB? My OBs have always respected my desires.

Just a few thoughts to consider. :)

[Mamagistra]

Honestly, Aubrey, I have never felt out of control, bullied, or even domineered in the hospital. I have never had anyone, even once, try to make me accept something other than the way I totally wanted things to go. I also don't have lots of people in the room during delivery.

I guess I have to wonder if you have a realistic vision of hospital deliveries?

I'm not picking on you, momof7 (I promise :)), but there are LOTS of us who felt what you say that you did not. Personally, while I am thankful to have two beautiful children that were delivered in a hospital WITHOUT a c-section, I remain traumatized by the things that were done and said to me while in the "care" of a hospital...particularly now that I know that these things were LIES!

Trust me when I say that forcing women to lie on their backs and insinuating that they will be cut open should they not comply are standard MOs in the world of obstetrics. Believe me when I say that no doctor should follow his fancy (or consider his golf schedule) when deciding whether or not to SLICE the perineum of a laboring woman open, but this occurs very frequently and unnecessarily. I could go on and on, but there are greater, abler minds who have researched this further and can elaborate better than me. :o

I am delighted that there are those who have had uneventful experiences in hospitals, but that is rarely the norm without some (however small) coercion, intervention, outright deceit, or flat-out misunderstanding of the birth process. Such dishonesty was perpetrated on me, on family members, and on friends. The whole idea that normal, healthy birth should take place in a setting meant for trauma and illness in the first place is now reprehensible to me.

I can't dictate what dear Aubrey should or should not do, although I encourage her to birth the way she feels led. Those of you who disbelieve any discomfort and intuition about the OB/hospital experience, or believe it to be selfish or wrong-headed, need not be swayed by my words. Do, however, take into consideration that there are very valid reasons and emotions behind avoidance of invasive hospital birth that transcend the almighty dollar.

[8FillTheHeart]

While I do not doubt the validity of those experiences, I do have to wonder if they are the norm. I am friends with lots of women with large families.....none of whom homebirth. My experience is typical among my friends.

I believe it is painting a broad brush to make all OBs sound like they are more interested in a quick outcome vs respecting a mother's delivery choices. I interview my drs before I choose them. I am educated in my options. I treat my drs with respect and expect the same. I cannot believe that I have been only "lucky." I have delivered 8 children with 6 different drs. All of my deliveries could not have gone any better than they did. Even my dd that was stillborn, the dr was so incredibly compassionate, holding my hand and crying with me.

I am sorry you had such a horrible experience. But that doesn't mean it is the norm for an informed mother that has a relationship with her dr.

[Danestress]

I'd like for you to consider the opposite scenario: what if your ins only covered homebirths? Statistically, let's say, this was just as safe or even safer than hospital births, but due to technology, etc., you feel safer/more comfortable/etc. in a hospital. I think most women would be willing to pay $2000 out of pocket for that kind of peace of mind. It's hard to look at it the other way around because it's not the norm.




I don't think you have to defend a decision to us either way. I think reasonable minds can definitely disagree on this, and it's a decision you can make and just try to make one you will feel good about - so if you have kind of decided, they go with it and I hope you have a great experience.

To answer your question, though, I honestly try not to be overly guided by my feelings about things. If I had to do a homebirth according to the insurance, I would investigate the *data* about safety and health (and I think from what little I know, that I would be totally great with a HB) and I would try to make a decision based on that, rather than on my feelings. But I wouldn't be a basket case either way if the research was relatively reassuring. If you are, that's relevant. It's probably medically relative if it would cause you anxiety. It's okay to go with your feelings.

I will say that I wasn't bullied at all and I had a great relationship with my hospital doctor (who I never met prior to being pregnant and "assigned" to him). He was a wonderful, gentle man. His wife came to visit me the day after my twins were born to tell me that she woke in the night and got on her knees and prayed for my boys - at the same time I was delivering - because she woke with a sense there was a problem (and there was, but that's a long story). She and the Doctor were homeschoolers and eventually she and another woman mentored me into giving homeschooling a try (another long story). So I really feel that that experience was so blessed by God.

But you have to do what feels right to you. I didn't mean to make you feel like you have to justify a decision - neither decision here is really 'right' or 'wong.'

[Pencil Pusher]

I didn't mean to make you feel like you have to justify a decision - neither decision here is really 'right' or 'wong.'

Oh! I hope I didn't come across harsh or angry! I really didn't mean to offend anyone!

And, fwiw, I feel slightly bullied in a drive-through lane w someone waiting behind me. LOL So I'm sure my perceptions are somewhat skewed.:)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Oh! I hope I didn't come across harsh or angry! I really didn't mean to offend anyone!

And, fwiw, I feel slightly bullied in a drive-through lane w someone waiting behind me. LOL So I'm sure my perceptions are somewhat skewed.:)

Also, remember -- just because some of us have definite feelings of what *we* would do, we are not trying to insist that they be your feelings or decisions as well. No subtle bullying intended. You're a big girl. (And before this is over, you're gonna get bigger! :p :D)

[Pencil Pusher]

Also, remember -- just because some of us have definite feelings of what *we* would do, we are not trying to insist that they be your feelings or decisions as well. No subtle bullying intended.

Pam, I can't tell if you're joking. I didn't mean that I felt bullied by you all. I guess I *could*--if I hadn't asked what you thought.

What I mean is when I'm sitting in someone's office (esp if I'm sitting there in one of their little paper nightgowns with a breeze at my back!:p), & they tell me what they're going to do. (Read: do labs before I've even met the dr/mw/?, test for HIV--I don't know why this one bothers me!, induce due to fast labors, etc.)

And I say politely, "Oh, thank you. I'd rather ______."

Their eyes bug out, & they say, "This is the way we do it."

And I say politely, "Oh, I'm so sorry to be a pest. I wonder if we could __________."

They say suspiciously, "Let me go get a nurse."

Repeat.

Then head honcho lady comes in & tells me it's their way or the highway.

I thank her for her time, hold my paper nightgown shut, & find the high way. Because if they care this much about such a little thing (or if they don't know that what they're requiring is illegal/unhealthy/etc.), I'm not sure I trust them when I'm in a more compromised position. Kwim?

And as far as the drive-through, I'm just super-worried about inconveniencing people. I know most people are in a huge hurry to do everything, & I know I tend toward the slow side (only according to my mom, lol), so I try to hurry up & get out of the way.

[Danestress]

Oh! I hope I didn't come across harsh or angry! I really didn't mean to offend anyone!

And, fwiw, I feel slightly bullied in a drive-through lane w someone waiting behind me. LOL So I'm sure my perceptions are somewhat skewed.:)

No no, not at all. I was concerned about how you would perceive *our* responses - sometimes it's hard to post something and not get the answer you want. And I didn't want the irrational pregnant woman freaking out on us.


kidding. kidding. kidding.

Blessings, Dana

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Pam, I can't tell if you're joking.

No, not joking at all. I don't want you to feel, with all the discussion back and forth and back again, and the strong opinions on both sides and all, anyway... I didn't want you to feel like anybody would think less of you if you did it one way or the other. We (most of us, I think) know that you're thinking this through here, out loud, as it were.

I was serious, but I wasn't thinking that you were saying you were being bullied by *us*.

(The HIV thing is protective for the mom. Of course, the mom always knows she does not have HIV. And that the dad is faithful to her. But sometimes -- *sometimes* -- the father of the baby has not been faithful. And he's not about to tell HER. So she's living with this and doesn't know it, and if she could find out before the baby is born, she can take certain antivirals and avoid certain things at delivery that would increase the chance dramatically that her precious child would not get his horrible virus passed on to him or her.)

[Brigitte]

Aubrey,

You need to do what you feel right in your heart and in your "gut." I do have to ask, however, if you have tried another ob office. Not all are the same and you might find one that suits you better, or you might not. If it were me and I had the same misgivings you have, I would "interview" a couple of drs first and then decide. That way I know in my head and my heart that I did everything I needed to do to make the right decision for my family (no matter what that decision is).

FWIW, I have left doctors and dentists that I did not feel comfortable with, but I have always found someone that I did feel comfortable with. I put a lot of research time into training and medical practices/philosophies, etc. before I choose. It is very important to me, too.

Best of luck with this.

[Mamagistra]

But that doesn't mean it is the norm for an informed mother that has a relationship with her dr.

I think "informed" is the operative word here, of course. I was completely uninformed about any other options with my first two births. Oh how I thank God that I can inform others now! :)

FWIW, I personally had a stellar relationship with my OB...up until the point he decided that I--5'10" strapping moi--had best be induced early to avoid shoulder dystocia...out of the blue, at 34 weeks with child number three, after a previous 10-lb.+ baby! I won't go further except to say that (A) he was incorrect, ;) and (B) I later learned that he had been sued and was struggling to protect himself. That mindless litigation colors the climate for practitioners alarms me, however, it does not change my view of the field as a whole based on my own experience and subsequent research. There is simply too much trust in a system that has over-medicalized birth.

Your experience with stillbirth is so touching; I feel quite humbled that you shared it. (((momof7)))

[8FillTheHeart]

Aubrey,

You need to do what you feel right in your heart and in your "gut." I do have to ask, however, if you have tried another ob office. Not all are the same and you might find one that suits you better, or you might not. If it were me and I had the same misgivings you have, I would "interview" a couple of drs first and then decide. That way I know in my head and my heart that I did everything I needed to do to make the right decision for my family (no matter what that decision is).

FWIW, I have left doctors and dentists that I did not feel comfortable with, but I have always found someone that I did feel comfortable with. I put a lot of research time into training and medical practices/philosophies, etc. before I choose. It is very important to me, too.

Best of luck with this.

I think this is excellent advice. You can also find out a lot by a simple phone call. I only go to practices that are pro-life and do not make you rotate through drs. I do not compromise on those issues, ever. Usually however answers the phone at the office can answer questions like that immediately.

I think the peace of mind knowing you have made the best informed decision regarding all options is always the one you can live with. :)

And Aubrey, I hope you don't think I am trying to force my POV on you. That certainly is not my intent. I just wanted to let you know that there are wonderful drs out there. :) You have to make the decision that works for you, your baby, and your family.

[Susan in KY]

The midwives there are great, and the whole thing cost only $750 back in 2001. :-) You could get a nice vacation while you're at it.

Susan

[Pencil Pusher]

I was serious, but I wasn't thinking that you were saying you were being bullied by *us*.

(The HIV thing is protective for the mom. Of course, the mom always knows she does not have HIV. And that the dad is faithful to her. But sometimes -- *sometimes* -- the father of the baby has not been faithful. And he's not about to tell HER. So she's living with this and doesn't know it, and if she could find out before the baby is born, she can take certain antivirals and avoid certain things at delivery that would increase the chance dramatically that her precious child would not get his horrible virus passed on to him or her.)

Oh, good. Thanks!

As for HIV, I also realize now that it's for the dr's safety. They didn't bother to explain this to me w/ #1 or #2. It was simply. their. way. No explanation. And see? Now that I know that it's for someone else, I happily comply.;)

[Pencil Pusher]

I do have to ask, however, if you have tried another ob office. Not all are the same and you might find one that suits you better, or you might not.

Well, over the course of 4 pg's, I've been to 2 ob's & 3mw's. All but the one I delivered w/ rotate through drs/mws. One is being sued. One insisted that I'd cheated on dh because I insisted on when I'd gotten pg. Etc.

[Pencil Pusher]

And I didn't want the irrational pregnant woman freaking out on us.

:eek::eek::eek:















kidding here, too! I'd give you a wink, but I'm all out of my allotment of faces. :(

[Pencil Pusher]

And Aubrey, I hope you don't think I am trying to force my POV on you. That certainly is not my intent. I just wanted to let you know that there are wonderful drs out there. :) You have to make the decision that works for you, your baby, and your family.

You're sweet. Thank you!

[Pencil Pusher]

The midwives there are great, and the whole thing cost only $750 back in 2001. :-) You could get a nice vacation while you're at it.

Susan

Alright, ladies. I've made my decision! :D This is why I post here--y'all have GREAT ideas!:D:D

[Pencil Pusher]

The midwives there are great, and the whole thing cost only $750 back in 2001. :-) You could get a nice vacation while you're at it.

Susan

Oh, & btw, my reg mw IS British. So you understand! ;)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Oh, good. Thanks!

As for HIV, I also realize now that it's for the dr's safety. They didn't bother to explain this to me w/ #1 or #2. It was simply. their. way. No explanation. And see? Now that I know that it's for someone else, I happily comply.;)

Nooooo, it's not for the doctor's safety. The doctor takes precautions with EVERY mother to shield him/herself from blood-borne disease. (That's called "universal precautions.")

It's for the protection of the INFANT. Because the mom can take anti-virals and make the chances that the baby will not have a single trace of HIV go up dramatically.

(Edit: Or maybe you were referring to information you got elsewhere, about it being protective for the doc, I mean.)

[Susan in KY]

Oh, & btw, my reg mw IS British. So you understand! ;)

Yup!

[amy g.]

I did not read every post, and it sounds like you made a good decision. I just wanted to add that paying for the midwife is ABSOLUTELY worth the money in my opinion.

With my last birth, I paid almost $3,000 for a midwife, and $700 for a doula. A hospital birth would have been almost free. I never spend money on myself, but I believe that home or a birthing center is a much safer place to have a normal delivery. I looked at the money as an investment in my baby's health and well being. Not to mention my own sanity.