A "Beast" biting at our heels, or an "Ideal" tugging at our hearts? (spin-off)

[Tina in Ouray]

Lisa and all,

I wonder if you'd mind if I piggy-backed on something you said in the 'anti-thread.” One phrase you wrote caught my attention; “. . . a mythical beast we have created in our minds . . . .” ***(See quote below for context.)

I think a “mythical beast” of sorts is characteristic of classical education -- in a positive way. I wouldn't agree, though, to the nature of this beast quite as you have described. When I think of classical education I do not think of things like “over-achieving” or “award-winning” or even, necessarily, “Latin-speaking.” But I would like to propose that without a “mythical beast,” classical education isn't really . . . classical.

I know that needs explaining. Since I know that I can't do a good job of it, I'm going to resort to citing David V. Hicks. He captured this idea in “Norms and Nobility: A Treatise on Education” in his chapter called “The Tyrannizing Image.” That chapter begins with:“An Ideal Type tyrannized classical education. The ancient schoolmaster in his intense struggle to achieve a living synthesis of thought and action exemplified this Ideal and passed it on to his pupils by inviting them to share in his struggle for self-knowledge and self-mastery, the immature mind participating in the mature. Against this Ideal were the master's achievements and his pupil's judged. All fell short, of course, but some -- and here's the rub -- far less short than others. Although the Ideal Type no longer receives attention from the educational theorist, it still is used in contemporary judgment of both teachers and students. . . . the greatest teachers still exhibit an Ideal in their speech and behavior and in their normative approach to learning. Their lessons spring to life in the moral climate surrounding them.”
It seems that an “ideal type” or “mythical beast” has always been an essential element of classical education because a classical education is normative or prescriptive: it points us towards what ought to be, rather than settling for what is. And just as you described, this “Ideal Type” is a “composite image of imperatives.” But this is a good thing, not a bad thing. This Ideal points students towards what kind of person they ought to become, and it also points tutors (masters) towards the same Ideal. We're in this together with our students. It is a struggle. And we all fall short.

Towards the end of this chapter Hicks compares the ancient and the modern means of norm-setting.“The Greek doctrine of the Golden Mean prescribed man as he ought to be -- physically poised, mentally balanced and rounded off, thoughtful in action and active in thought: the living embodiement of the Ideal Type. The modern mean, on the other hand, defines the individual as he is in relation to a statistical point.” I find this telling. But there is more.“Education's graduation from a Golden Mean philosophy to one of statistical mean is not yet complete. Despite our failure nowadays to agree on a Golden Mean, the demands of the Ideal Type persistently tug at our hearts. These we dismiss as subjective longings for some bygone era. We quiet these urges by reminding ourselves of how psychologically damaging and undemocratic a Golden Mean philosophy is to the student who must endure the tensions of constant self-denial and self-control in pursuit of the Ideal. Besides, it adds enormously to the burden of being a teacher, who must struggle to embody the Ideal and who must take responsibility for cultivating in his students a sense of conscience and style both inside and outside of the classroom. How much easier and safer it is to adopt the philosophy of the modern mean. Judging the student against what he is or against what his peers are, after dividing them by their number, seems far less arbitrary and demanding. What could be more democratic and less controversial? How could a student fail to measure up to what he is? Unfortunately, however, the statistical mean is a solution with mathematical -- but not human -- efficacy.” [Italics added.]
Maybe instead of a “mythical beast” biting at our feet we could visualize an “Ideal Type” tugging at our hearts and drawing us higher up and further in.“The past instructs us that man has only understood himself and mastered himself in pursuit of a self-transcendent Ideal, a Golden Fleece, a Promised Land, a Holy Grail, a numinous windmill. He defines himself in the quest, not on Kalypso's unblown isle, where he is only judged against himself, where all obstacles are removed, where the question of human significance seems insignificant, and where there are no moral restraints or binding ideals. . . . Only Odysseus' knowledge of the past -- his longing for Ithaka, Penelope, and Telemakhs -- keeps him alive; and only the responsibility he takes for that knowledge rescues him from Kalypso's pointless life of pleasure.”
To the extent that we ignore this “beast,” we could be the losers, not the winners. Rather than either patting ourselves on the back over our achievements or beating ourselves up over how short we fall, mightn't we be wiser to let this image lead us on?

You're right. It's not about being Supermom. Nor is it about awards. Nor which books we read or don't read. But it is about being something more than we are.

Tina in Ouray, CO


***Percytruffle wrote, “So then, this example of a completely classical, overachieving, award winning, Latin speaking, exclusively great books reading, non-textbook using Supermom that we all seem to fall short of is really a figment of our imaginations, a mythical beast we have created in our minds as a stumbling block to acknowledging our own achievements. We need to give ourselves a group pat on the back instead.”

[percytruffle]

Great points. I agree with your comment:

"To the extent that we ignore this “beast,” we could be the losers, not the winners. Rather than either patting ourselves on the back over our achievements or beating ourselves up over how short we fall, mightn't we be wiser to let this image lead us on?"


This is really a case of the half full/half empty glass. The ideal we set up for ourselves should be a beacon, but too often it turns out to be a road block instead. Perhaps those who strive for excellence are more prone to perfectionistic and self doubting tendencies?

Ideals are necessary, you know the old, if you fail to plan... moral. Sometimes they can become paralyzing though, especially when we begin to not just keep our ideal image in front of us, but we begin to compare ourselves to our ideal in unhealthy ways and to compare ourselves to others and their efforts regardless of whether their situations are comparable to ours or not.

I have to keep my own comparisons in check and can become discouraged if I'm not careful.


"The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo



Blessings,
Lisa

[mcconnellboys]

Exactly! I think it is only through this sort of Socratic dialogue that we all, students and teachers, become more than any of us could be alone. Well done, magistra,

Regena

[percytruffle]

I had a good chuckle at your post on the anti-thread. I found myself thinking, "Of course she doesn't own TWTM, she probably could have written her own classical education manual and we'd all be flocking to the 'Tina in Ouray board'!"

[Leah]

I have been re-reading Hicks lately and love your metaphor of the ideal tugging at our hearts. I think you are so right that this is at the heart of classical education. I think this ideal goes back to the Greek ideal of the logos and the Biblical revelation of the Logos.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this!

[Jami]

It must be the week to revist Norms and Nobility, I've been re-reading it lately too. Thank you, Tina for your reminder to be neither too critical nor complacent as we evaluate how we're doing in this work we've been called to as homeschooling mothers. But to press on toward the Ideal. I love to come back to the Circe Institute's definition of education (not classical, neo-classical or any other flavor, just education), that to educate means to cultivate wisdom and virtue in a student by nourishing their souls on goodness, truth, and beauty.

Jami

[cajun.classical]

Tina,

Thank you for that. I too have been revisiting Norms and Nobility this week. Thank you for that reminder and encouragement to always be striving. It's so easy to forget that we as teachers are on a journey as well and that we must model what we want to teach our children. That doesn't mean that we have to be a master of Latin to teach Latin (although as we continue to repair the ruins I expect us to reach this level), but it does mean that we always have to be growing and struggling and studying and loving learning. And of course, as you said, we fall short. But we musn't be satisfied with falling short. Which doesn't mean that we expect perfection of ourselves only that we are striving to be perfect. In that there is a parallel to our Christian life. We daily strive to be righteous and sinless, knowing that we will fail. And we do fail. But the next day, we try again. And we never give up or allow ourselves to say, well, I'm just a sinner. I can't do better.

I hope that doesn't come across harshly. It's not intended as such. I think that whether the Ideal you speak of inspires us or condemns us has more to do with our hearts and our attitudes than it does with our abilities.

Again, thank you for blessing me with your encouragement. It is no small task to seek to educate our children. Nor is it a small task to disciple and raise them--a task that I often feel is too much for me. But it is the task that God has called me to and by His Grace I seek to accomplish it, even as I fail daily.

[Michelle in MO]

for the next year, I'm always dreaming about the perfect homeschool environment and the perfect curriculum and day. The first few weeks are always very frustrating, because the "real" never matches up with the "ideal". However, I keep on striving towards the ideal!

Thank you for your excellent post reminding us of the difference between striving towards the ideal and the noble, and not settling for the "mean" that happens so often at public schools!

[Janice in NJ]

The golden mean; the golden ratio - the true beauty found in phi....

THANKS for your words! As someone who naturally shrinks from tension and gravitates towards WORK today that will promise ease for tomorrow, I NEEDED to be reminded of the peace that I feel when I ponder these two "ratios" AND my desire to embrace them and live with them rather than to CONQUER and be DONE with them!

Why do I always fall back into that???!!!!????:)

No wonder Pythagorus was tempted to idolize it all. What peaceful order out of seeming tension and frustration!

Thank you!

Peace to you and your this morning,
Janice

Enjoying my little people!
Enjoying my journey today!

[Kelli in TN]

I have nothing insightful to add but I could not let this go without at least saying "Bless you for posting this, Tina"

As one who falls so short of the Ideal, I really appreciate the encouragement to keep striving.

It was just a wonderful, wonderful post and I wish I had something to offer that would be of more value than my embarrassing gushing!:o

[LisaNY]

Such good stuff! (I'm so eloquent! :p)

This is an example of why I come here. Even though we all have different ways of fleshing out our goals, our goals are still connected by that desire for excellence. :)

[Beth in Central TX]

Dear Tina,

It's so great to "see" you on the boards again!

Here's an excerpt from Hick's quote in your post:
“We quiet these urges by reminding ourselves of how psychologically damaging and undemocratic a Golden Mean philosophy is to the student who must endure the tensions of constant self-denial and self-control in pursuit of the Ideal. Besides, it adds enormously to the burden of being a teacher, who must struggle to embody the Ideal and who must take responsibility for cultivating in his students a sense of conscience and style both inside and outside of the classroom." [boldface addeded]

Your reply to the quote:
"Maybe instead of a “mythical beast” biting at our feet we could visualize an “Ideal Type” tugging at our hearts and drawing us higher up and further in."

I try desperately to have the Ideal type tug at my heart rather than visualizing the mythical beast at my heels, but like Hick's quote I do feel the burden of embodying the Ideal 24/7. I feel like I'm always "on" with my boys. The path of least resistance enables me to put on my supermom cape and fly as high as I can, until I crash. The path less traveled requires more work internally, but in the end, it is always the better way to go. Like Paul, I do what I don't want to do, and don't do what I want to do.

I haven't read N&N in awhile. I think I'll pull it down and read through it as I plan for next year.

Take care,

[Jami]

But Michelle, and correct me if I'm wrong here Tina, I don't think Hicks or Tina is saying strive for a "perfect homeschool day" or keep trying to find the "perfect homeschool curriculum". That's what is so encouraging about this post, it's about wanting to move our students along a path toward wisdom and virtue. Toward the Ideal (for the Christian, toward Christlikeness). And that amazingly enough can happen in an imperfect home with imperfect curriculum. Yes, the right tools are important, the mind needs to dwell on the true, beautiful and good. And yes, order and an environment conducive to learning should be worked towards. I think those things are less important than we, the true curriculum, being willing to dig in and really disciple our children. We don't have to have arrived at some model schedule using perfect curriculum to move along the path with them, as long as we're focused on where the path leads and are willing to walk with them toward that end.

For me I feel less burdened with this goal in mind, it's something that is beyond me! It's not something I can produce just by finding the right math program or by acing the SATs. I have to be willing to watch and know my child and trust in the wisdom of the past, and of course rely on the transforming work of the Holy Spirit in my life and in the life of my children.

Jami

[cajun.classical]

But Michelle, and correct me if I'm wrong here Tina, I don't think Hicks or Tina is saying strive for a "perfect homeschool day" or keep trying to find the "perfect homeschool curriculum". That's what is so encouraging about this post, it's about wanting to move our students along a path toward wisdom and virtue. Toward the Ideal (for the Christian, toward Christlikeness). And that amazingly enough can happen in an imperfect home with imperfect curriculum. Yes, the right tools are important, the mind needs to dwell on the true, beautiful and good. And yes, order and an environment conducive to learning should be worked towards. I think those things are less important than we, the true curriculum, being willing to dig in and really disciple our children. We don't have to have arrived at some model schedule using perfect curriculum to move along the path with them, as long as we're focused on where the path leads and are willing to walk with them toward that end.

For me I feel less burdened with this goal in mind, it's something that is beyond me! It's not something I can produce just by finding the right math program or by acing the SATs. I have to be willing to watch and know my child and trust in the wisdom of the past, and of course rely on the transforming work of the Holy Spirit in my life and in the life of my children.

Jami

Jami,
So well said. I too find that being led by the Ideal is liberating rather than burdensome. Not liberating because it's an easy path to take, but liberating because it keeps me focused on what I'm really trying to accomplish. I'm not really trying to teach the Great Books. I'm using them to cultivate wisdom and virtue. And so there is simply no need to fret over finding the perfect curriculum. Sure, I like nice materials as much as anybody, but I try to remember that the teacher is the curriculum. I'm the one teaching my children, not a book. And it's also important to remember that I'm not teaching subjects, I'm teaching my children.

[Kelli in TN]

I too find that being led by the Ideal is liberating rather than burdensome. Not liberating because it's an easy path to take, but liberating because it keeps me focused on what I'm really trying to accomplish. I'm not really trying to teach the Great Books. I'm using them to cultivate wisdom and virtue. And so there is simply no need to fret over finding the perfect curriculum. Sure, I like nice materials as much as anybody, but I try to remember that the teacher is the curriculum. I'm the one teaching my children, not a book. And it's also important to remember that I'm not teaching subjects, I'm teaching my children.

Can I be honest for a minute?

It is liberating.

And at the same time it is terrifying! There is so much more at stake than high test scores, a great scholarship. It is not just a student, but a whole person. :eek: (Did I do enough, did I do too much, will this bird fly? )

So it is easier and harder. Liberating and terrifying.

But don't mind me, my daughter is a junior and I am going through a series of panic attacks as we start to prepare for the senior year and then on to life.

[percytruffle]

You said:

"And at the same time it is terrifying! There is so much more at stake than high test scores, a great scholarship. It is not just a student, but a whole person. (Did I do enough, did I do too much, will this bird fly? )"

I know how you feel. Parenting can be an intimidating role in itself, then add in homeschooling and watch the panic build. Over the years I have learned to recognize my tendency to do it all myself, to carry the burden alone. When I forget to seek His face and to release my burden to Him, the burden becomes too heavy for me carry. When I have prayed and looked for his guidance I have never once been disappointed. He always has more blessings in mind for me and my children than I could have imagined or thought to pray for. As my kids lives as young adults begin to unfold I am forever awed at the work He is doing in their lives and humbled at my own supporting role.

Blessings to you and keep looking up!

[Jami]

Sort of like "be holy as I am holy" (Say what?!) and yet, "take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Ahhhh)

I think you're right, Kelli, and it's good to be a little bit awed by the task. :)

[cajun.classical]

Can I be honest for a minute?

It is liberating.

And at the same time it is terrifying! There is so much more at stake than high test scores, a great scholarship. It is not just a student, but a whole person. :eek: (Did I do enough, did I do too much, will this bird fly? )

So it is easier and harder. Liberating and terrifying.



Absolutely. That's how I feel every time I reflect on the awesome task God has set before me. This is so much bigger than college admissions. My children's souls are at stake. But His Grace is sufficient!

[Rhondabee]

I'm not really trying to teach the Great Books. I'm using them to cultivate wisdom and virtue. And so there is simply no need to fret over finding the perfect curriculum.

Please bear with me. I found this so fascinating. (I've never read the book (never heard of) the book Tina quoted from)

Could you explain more about this? How do you use the Great Books as a tool to teach "wisdom and virtue" rather than just teaching the books because they are an important part of our collective culture?

I understand from the little amount of literature study we have done since we started hs'ing that we naturally analyze characters - their motivations, their actions, their philosophies - against our own beliefs. Maybe I'm wrong but this sounds like a huge step beyond that.

Thanks!
Rhonda

[cajun.classical]

Please bear with me. I found this so fascinating. (I've never read the book (never heard of) the book Tina quoted from)

Could you explain more about this? How do you use the Great Books as a tool to teach "wisdom and virtue" rather than just teaching the books because they are an important part of our collective culture?

I understand from the little amount of literature study we have done since we started hs'ing that we naturally analyze characters - their motivations, their actions, their philosophies - against our own beliefs. Maybe I'm wrong but this sounds like a huge step beyond that.

Thanks!
Rhonda

Rhonda,

I'll do my best here in the few minutes I have. What I'm talking about is not so far from what you are describing. I've been very influenced by the work of the Circe Institute and you'll find that they really flush these ideas out.

Circe defines education as the cultivation of wisdom and virtue by nourishing our souls on truth, beauty, and goodness. So, we read great literature, listen to beautiful music, surround ourselves with art and the beauty of the Creation, etc etc. But these things are not an end unto themselves. They point us to something greater.

I'll try to give some concrete examples so that you can see the kinds of things I'm talking about. Admittedly, these are my aims and I fall short, but this is the direction that I am trying to more and more deliberately move us toward.

So, for example take the study of Latin. I am a Latin-centered homeschool and I want to teach Latin for all the reasons that you generally hear. How do I use that to cultivate wisdom and virtue? Well, I'm still learning, but some ways would be that to master Latin takes an excellent work ethic and perseverance. Learning the language and reading the literature of the Romans can lead to wisdom as we learn about their culture and compare it to our own and hold it up to the light of Scripture.

And let's say that I'm teaching the Iliad. My concern here is not to master the characters and to learn the literary techniques that Homer employs--although I might include that if I could figure out how to use those to my own end, but not as an end unto itself. My real concern is the central question of the work: Is Achilles justified in his anger? That is the real point of this work. Well you can see how that could lend itself to a cultivation of wisdom and virtue. How does a virtuous man respond to a slight? What is the role of vengeance? What happens when a man is led by anger? What are the consequences to himself and to other people? Is this wise, virtuous? What makes us angry? How should we respond? If being dishonored is the worst that can happen to a man (which is what the Greeks thought), where does that lead a culture? What does God say about this? Why does HOmer present Achilles as achieving great glory and honor, but essentially as a hopeless figure? Where does our hope come from?

These are just a few things off the top of my head. But the idea is that as I and my children read these works and wrestle with these very timely questions, that we will move toward virtue and wisdom. The same can be said about any subject that we use as the launching off point for our discussion of wisdom and virtue. If I was more knowledgeable about Math, I'm sure I could use Math to cultivate wisdom and virtue. Even in my limited capacity, I still attempt to instill a work ethic and a habit of perseverance and a love of learning. I'm genuinely excited when I see math in a way I never saw it before. And the way numbers relate to each other truly points to the glory and magnificence of our Creator.

It really has to do with what the end goal is. I'm not suggesting anything other than rigorous academics; I'm simply stating that academic rigor is not my end goal, it is the means by which I hope to achieve much more.

My 3 year old is demanding a snack. I'll try to elaborate more if you need me to. I highly recommend the work of the Circe Institute is you are interested in learning more about all this.

[Rhondabee]

I admit that last year Circe just seemed a little too over my head!

I do get their emails, and have read tid-bits, but never really caught what you have described. I'm certainly interested in learning more, but I'll look them up.

Thanks for such a detailed response!
Rhonda

[percytruffle]

I see a classical education and analysis of subject matter within that framework as a means to engage my dc in the great questions of life that have permeated man's conversations though out the ages. As the Bible says, "There's nothing new under the sun". All ideas in this present age have their roots in ideas of the past. We need to educate ourselves and our dc in the history of ideas, so we can recognize the origins, true meanings, and implications of ideas presented to us now as "the next, new, wonderful, solve all the world's problems idea".