Cross-post from K-8 board, Planning for next year, starting with Logic, have some ?'s

[Deece in MN]

A number of posts recently have caused me to contemplate our course of study. I pulled out my copy of WTM and have been reading over it and trying to plan a structure for our next year of studies.

I am trying to determine Logic studies for a 7th grader.

A few considerations: I am trying to use what we have because I have a budget and I don't want to spend needlessly. With this in mind, I have Traditional Logic and so I am planning on following WTM and waiting until 9th grade to start that. In the meantime I have 2 years to prepare my dd for TL.

For those planning to use TL, WTM suggests Mind Benders and Red Herrings books for 5th and Critical Thinking Books 1 & 2 for 6th. For 7th & 8th a critical thinking resource in the students area of interest. I was thinking it might be best to follow the 5th & 6th grade recommendations as we have only done these things sporadically.

Ok, here is what I have: Mind Benders A1 (most has been completed already, there are 4 activities left in this book), Think A Minutes A1, A2, B1 & B2, Analogy Roundup from Dandylion Publications, Quotation Quizzlers from Dandylion Publicatioins, Critical Thinking Activities grades 7-12 by Dale Seymour & Ed Beardslee (purchased from Sonlight) and Daily Spark Critical Thinking book.

Would these resources be suitable to use as substitution for the WTM recs as a prep for TL 1 & 2 in high school? Or should I be looking at making some other purchases?

Thanks.
(I cross-posted this to the K-8 board)

[Kathy in MD]

deductive puzzles. I'd look for the Best of England's Logic Puzzles. They're witty and they don't get too difficult. I can do most of them. They come out quarterly, and you'll find them with the other Penny Press publications in Target and Barnes and Noble. There's another line other than Penny Press (I can't remember the name) that would be ok. The actual Penny Press line can be so difficult that you might not get your money's worth. If all you can find is Penny Press, I'd spend money on more Mind Benders, possibly B1.

[Deece in MN]

I also have Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox by the Bluedorns. Should we read through these, also?

[Deece in MN]

deductive puzzles. I'd look for the Best of England's Logic Puzzles. They're witty and they don't get too difficult. I can do most of them. They come out quarterly, and you'll find them with the other Penny Press publications in Target and Barnes and Noble. There's another line other than Penny Press (I can't remember the name) that would be ok. The actual Penny Press line can be so difficult that you might not get your money's worth. If all you can find is Penny Press, I'd spend money on more Mind Benders, possibly B1.

I think I might have some of these around because I like these types of puzzles. :) I'll have to look through my piles of magazines/catalogs/puzzle books.

I forgot that I also have Art of Argument. So, maybe we will read Fallacy Detective & Thinking Toolbox, then do AofA over the next 2 years. I can throw in some of the puzzles for fun. Then we can start TL1 in 9th.

Thanks!

[nutmeg]

I forgot that I also have Art of Argument. So, maybe we will read Fallacy Detective & Thinking Toolbox, then do AofA over the next 2 years. I can throw in some of the puzzles for fun. Then we can start TL1 in 9th.
This sounds similar to my plans.

We did:
Mindbenders in 4th and 5th
Grid Perplexors in 6th

future plans:
7th - Fallacy Detective, plus more Perplexor-type books (Logic Links, Venn Perplexors, etc)
8th - Thinking Toolbox, plus more Perplexor-type books (my kids love these!)
9th - TL1 in 9th

[Tina in Ouray]

Deecee,

I have a very budget-friendly approach. I've taught Traditional Logic for a number of years now. The best preparation I've found for traditional logic is a strong grounding in grammar (English and Latin) and mathematics. You really don't need all the other "pre-logic" workbooks and such, and, in some cases, you're better off without them.

Your kids may even be ready for Traditional Logic in 7th or 8th grade. Most of my own kids complete Traditional Logic in 7th grade. If they aren't, I wait and press on with . . . Latin and math.

These other workbooks and curriculum are really just buying you time. And there are times when our time (as teachers or as students) is better spent elsewhere. If a brain isn't ready for Traditional Logic, I say take time to walk and talk, or go play chess.

Just an alternative . . .

Tina in Ouray, CO

[Michelle in MO]

Deecee,

I have a very budget-friendly approach. I've taught Traditional Logic for a number of years now. The best preparation I've found for traditional logic is a strong grounding in grammar (English and Latin) and mathematics. You really don't need all the other "pre-logic" workbooks and such, and, in some cases, you're better off without them.

My oldest and middle daughters started TL in 7th grade and did well, but both are excellent readers. I guess that's the one thing I'd add to Tina's suggestion, but I think she's right in that a good foundation in those skills which already require logic would be best.

I am doing Mind Benders with my youngest, who is in 5th grade. She is naturally adept at math, but her reading skills aren't as strong as I'd like them to be, so I'm going to hold her off of TL I and II until her reading skills have improved.

[Deece in MN]

Tina, I was hoping you would reply. :)

I do have a ds who will be in 9th and he is ready for TL. My dd is fine math wise, but has only a basic grasp of grammar (I am a believer in formal grammar in the later years). We are going to start Latin this year and AG for grammar. I may hold off until 8th grade for her to start TL so she has a more firm grammar base, though maybe she can try it and we can all work through it together.

I appreciate the advice as it gives me a new perspective.

Thanks everyone for the replies!

[Tina in Ouray]

Michelle and Deece,


Yes, strong reading skills are critical to understanding formal logic as well. Thanks for bringing that up. We take “reading” for granted way too often. Have either of you read “How to Read a Book”? It is one of the best apologies I know for the role of the three arts of grammar, logic, and rhetoric in “regulating the elaborate process of writing and reading.”


Deece, it sounds like you have a good plan. In your shoes, I'd set 7th grade for some serious Latin and grammar study and begin TLI in 8th grade. TLI moves slow enough that you could pull it off without some of the grammar study already under her belt, but it really makes more sense (to me) to just hold off with the formal logic. TLII is where you will feel the pinch of understanding how to translate ordinary English into logical form. Some kids will intuitively take to this; some will not.


Tina in Ouray, CO

[Deece in MN]

Michelle and Deece,


Yes, strong reading skills are critical to understanding formal logic as well. Thanks for bringing that up. We take “reading” for granted way too often. Have either of you read “How to Read a Book”? It is one of the best apologies I know for the role of the three arts of grammar, logic, and rhetoric in “regulating the elaborate process of writing and reading.”


Deece, it sounds like you have a good plan. In your shoes, I'd set 7th grade for some serious Latin and grammar study and begin TLI in 8th grade. TLI moves slow enough that you could pull it off without some of the grammar study already under her belt, but it really makes more sense (to me) to just hold off with the formal logic. TLII is where you will feel the pinch of understanding how to translate ordinary English into logical form. Some kids will intuitively take to this; some will not.


Tina in Ouray, CO

My ds and I are working through How To Read A Book right now. We are only on chapter 4 or 5, but it is interesting so far. I am also considering purchasing TWEM, but would like to look at it first. I am creating my list for our hs conference in April, so I will try to look at it then.

Thanks, again!