CW Homer--what level R&S Grammar?

[Alana in Canada]

We're currently working on Aesop A&B with Rod and Staff 3.

Should we start Homer alongside our R&S4? (This would be next year) Will it be enough?

I haven't seen either--just beginning to get a little worried. My son is already 10--and I don't want to push back writing too much.

Any suggestions, advice, reassurance?
Thanks.

[Susan in SoCal]

Homer all by itself has plenty of writing AND grammar. And the Core book itself gives instruction regarding the grammar analysis used each week. So conceivably, you can do all the grammar work without having an additional/separate grammar program.

That said, some of the grammar in Homer can be tough. Here's the way we've handled it the last couple years (up thru 4th grade, we used a separate grammar; beginning in 5th with Homer A, no extra grammar). We're now a little more than halfway thru Homer B and we do not have a separate grammar program. BUT ... we do have on hand for reference purposes the following texts:

R&S 8 and R&S Handbook
Harvey's Elementary & Revised English books
The First Whole Book of Diagrams
(and in a perfect world, I would also have Descriptive English Grammar, but I've yet to find one of those for less than $100, wahhh!!!)

If we hit a snag in Homer and can't figure it out just by the Core instruction, we turn to the relevant sections in one or more of our grammar references. Do a little study, rip thru some of the exercises, and head back to Homer. We've only had to do this in a couple places. It works for us.

So my short answer to you: yes. Homer and R&S4 is fine. Or, if your kiddo is naturally grammar proficient, then Homer alone is probably fine. Use a separate grammar if you need the additional exercise.

[Beth in Central TX]

I think the only issue you will have is the diagramming. R&S 4 is still introducing basic diagramming; however, Homer A ramps up diagramming pretty fast. This shouldn't be a problem or keep you from starting Homer, but I would just keep it in mind when you get to the diagramming work, especially in Week 6. If it's too advanced, just show him how the sentence should be diagrammed and move on.

[Robin Hood]

[quote=Alana in Canada;77834]We're currently working on Aesop A&B with Rod and Staff 3.quote]

OT, but I have seen these posts before and have no idea what they mean. Will you explain what "Aesop A&B with R & S 3" means? Is this the R&S grammer book, Beginning Wisely? I can't find anything in the books that refers to Aesop.

[Alana in Canada]

Sorry! I assume that it is in the abbreviations list (the sticky at the top) but it may not be!

Yes, R&S3 is Rod and Staff 3, Beginning Wisely and Aesop A&B are the first two books in the progymnasmata called Classical Writing. (The next is Homer).

Susan in SoCal--thanks for the list of references. That is really good to know. We will be at a curriculum fair in April so I'll take note and keep on the look out for them--it would never have occured to me to get R&S8!--Do you use the teacher's manual or the student book or both?

And I appreciate the heads up about the diagramming and the suggestion on how to handle it, Beth. That's a very good idea.

Unfortunately, neither my son nor I are "good with grammar."
(Can you tell?;))

[Julie in GA]

Homer's grammar does get pretty advanced -- especially Homer B. Some of the concepts in "B" aren't introduced until R&S 7. It is true that things are explained in CW's core manual, so much of it depends on the readiness of your son to handle abstract grammatical concepts and advanced diagramming.

If you ds will be fifth grade next year, may I suggest doing only Homer A and Poetry for Beginners A. Wait until 6th grade for Homer B. You could even go halfway through B, stop and do more poetry, and then finish B if things get too tough. You'll have plenty of time because the next level, Diogenes, really shouldn't be used until 7th grade at the earliest (8th is probably better). That gives you time to finish Homer B, and do the Intermediate Poetry books before beginning Diogenes in 8th grade.

[Alana in Canada]

Julie--this program is extremely frustrating in this regard. Aesop seems to be geared for really young children. But Homer--everyone has dire warnings about it--which--on the whole--I have no problem heeding. But now there are warnings about Diogenes.

And what about the next one? And the next? When will this program end? Certainly not by Grade 12, by the looks of things. I absolutely love the methodology...but the materials seem spaced too far apart to use it consistently.

[Alana in Canada]

OK, so looking at the materials a few weeks ago, I'd come up with the following as my plan (I believe the descriptions are copied and pasted directly from the descriptions of the books themselves):

Classical Writing Sequence

grades 3 - 4: Aesop -- beginning narrative writing. Rewriting short fables.

grades 5 - 6: Homer -- narrative writing with longer stories, rearranging the chronological arrangement of the stories.

grades 7 - 8: Diogenes -- expository writing, explaining why something is wise, good, just kind, right, wrong. We cover the five paragraph essay, basic paragraph writing, outlining, and how to generate thesis statements.

grade 9: Herodotus -- argumentative writing, arguing for an against an issue, learning to generate proper arguments for and against an issue using the rhetorical topics of invention. (Also learning to employ both pathos and appeal to reason to persuade the audience). Authors suggest completing Memoria Press, Intro to Logic either before or along with this course.

grade 10: Plutarch -- descriptive writing, learning to describe (praise and blame) persons, places, things, and ideas. This book builds on and enhances the skills learned in grade 9 with argumentative writing, adding description as means of persuasion.

grade 11 and 12: Demosthenes -- thesis and research paper writing.

[Beth in Central TX]

That's what we are doing this year with my 5th & 6th grade boys: Homer A & Beg Poetry A.

I would like to put in a plug for Beg Poetry. I was going to skip this part of CW, but I'm so glad that I didn't. My boys and I have learned so much from this 11-week program. I'm working through R&S 5 with my middle son, and we are flying through the poetry lessons because of CW. This part was a real struggle last year when I went through it with my 1st son. We did it, but some of the answers didn't make sense.

Anyway, my boys did an imitation yesterday of terza rima based on the poem Ode to the West Wind by Shelley. I know I'm a bit biased, but I thought they were very well done. The program has stretched us and made us think, but we are all the better for it. We're looking forward to Beg Poetry B next year. BTW, my boys are not extremely excited about going back to Homer B, but it's a good program too.

Alana--I wouldn't start Homer A before 5th grade. Since you mentioned your son being 10, I assumed that he was in the 5th grade this year or that he will be in the 5th grade next year when you start CW Homer.

[Beth in Central TX]

This is the schedule that I'm following, and it has worked out very well. You could start later, but I definitely wouldn't start earlier. I'm coming to the conclusion that moving my boys ahead is not always the best thing to do. I've started staying on grade level (at max one grade level ahead) or the recommended level for the program. I've found that maturity plays just as much of a role as academic ability.

[Susan in SoCal]

I have both, but in a pinch I could get by with just the teacher manual. The TM has both the full text of the student manual (in tiny writing) as well as the answers. Being full size printing, the student manual is easier on my 'ol eyes.

About the "warnings" in regards to readiness for CW progression: I'm probably just not understanding the source of your frustration in regards to using the program "consistently." I can tell you how it's worked here so far. It was easy to spend two years (3rd & 4th) on Aesop. The models definitely grew in difficulty as the year progressed. The grammar was always pretty simple for us (thus, we chose to use a separate grammar that was more "advanced" than the Aesop material), but I really liked the way CW *applied* the grammar instruction to real sentences and models. It very nicely complemented our other grammar studies. Being more familiar with CW now, and looking back, and considering things, I probably could have started bringing some of the Homer elements (most notably, Theon's components for analysis) into the last several Aesop B writing projects. I think my son would have been ready for that. We spent all of 5th grade on Homer A, and we're using this year (6th) for Homer B. We work consistently, but not terribly quickly. I've been very mindful of not burning us (him or me!!) out during this Homer portion. We take an occasional week off here and there. But we're plugging thru.

I've read thru all of Diogenes. I know I don't want to start before 7th (maybe 7.5?? If I want to buy time & maturity before we begin, we'll do some Poetry work). I'm thinking Maxim & Chreia will easily take a year each. Much good stuff in there. And that leaves us beginning Herodotus sometime in 9th grade.

Even if we never proceed beyond Chreia, my son will have received an immensely stronger writing/analysis/grammar education than I ever received thru high school OR college. I'm thinking anything we accomplish after that is all the "icing on the cake."

The reason I'm blathering on about this is: my middle son (3rd grade, 8yo) has not even begun Aesop A yet. I simply don't think he's ready. We're concentrating on reading, narrating, copywork & just recently, dictation from our copywork. I'm not worrying about being "behind" because I know that just 3 levels of CW (aesop, homer, diogenes) will build a tremendous writing foundation. And there's plenty of time to finish those. And it's completely pointless beginning them before the proper maturity is in place.

Anyway, hope my meandering thoughts are a little reassuring about the "warnings" about beginning levels before certain ages/grades.

[Alana in Canada]

Both very helpful posts, ladies.

I freak out about being "behind" all the time (I brought my son home from p.s. at the end of Grade One and I've been hyper focussed on "remediating." However a few things have happened lately that make me think I can stop worrying about that now and treat him like a "fourth-grader" (whatever that is!)) --so I'm probably just having a knee jerk reaction.

I also hadn't thought about just what my children would get for a foundation if we "only" get to a certain point, now what that point should be. Thanks for that.

I just want to be able to give my kids the best of everything out there, kwim?

I appreciate the suggestion to begin working on some of the Homer material with the end of AesopB. I can see I'm going to have to order it and start becoming familiar with it. It took me about 6 months to get up and running with simple ol' Aesop!

Natural assumption Beth, no worries. And did you leave something out of your post? You said This is the schedule that I'm following, and it has worked out very well. Which schedule?

And Susan, you wrote: I'm thinking Maxim & Chreia will easily take a year each.

What's Maxim and Chreia?

Thank you so much for answering my questions!

[Susan in SoCal]

Diogenes: Maxim and Diogenes: Chreia :-)

yikes. so nice to have edit feature now. too bad it doesn't let me edit the subject line so I can spell your name correctly! :-(

update: Thx Alana, for teaching me the editing ropes. got it changed :-)

[Alana in Canada]

Actually, you can edit the title--not that I care!
Laura in China told me how. When in edit mode, click "go advanced." If the title is the title of the thread, however, it doesn't show up on the main board. Very weird that.

And thanks. I'd seen the terms before, so when you threw them out like that I wondered if I'd missed a whole two books! Whew.